Neo Forum Mafia - Game Over

[Duskfall98]

Ftr people are wondering why I thought prims would be pr target; sometimes when people are playing differently and look scummy or off meta to town players, they look the same for scum players. So like town players read the difference as "not town", scum players read the difference as "not VT", bit I guess I'm the only one following this logic now oops

[sb]

Oh wait. Shadoweh isn't softconfirmed scum anymore. I actually have to vote her again.

##Vote Shadoweh

This is the biggest Serela energy post I've seen in a while LMAO. I did have the same thought as you yesterday feeling like Refa was following me a lot ftr but we tend to have similar opinions in a lot of NOC games (like the most recent one we played together THANKS FOR NOTHING LEET) so I don't feel like its meaningful? And also scum!Refa is easily depressed and I haven't really seen that from them yet, so I'm not particularly worried.

Conq what part of 1020 made you lean scum!Serela? I actually started townreading them from the post because it looks like a genuine thought process and I don't know if Serela is brave enough to just post an abandoned case like that as scum. I don't really follow where you vote came from here?

[sb]

Am I over examining or is this a slip

Where's the slip? Assuming Rai is town? I know you said you hadn't been reading as much but I think the only person to even question it after the EoD was Nuxl.

[sb]

Actually maybe you're just illiterate and I assumed from you saying you were less motivated but yeah.

[Kilgamayan]

I was asked about this in private and it made me remember that convention differs from web sight to web sight and even from game to game on a given web sight so I should be clear about it in public: Scum do have daytalk.

wait we're on page 35, is this okay?

Yes. We're trying something new with this iteration of the forum! I need to make a new thread about it some time today.

Vote Count 2.1

O4rfish (Rumia) (2): NekoNekoRex, sb, Dormio Ergo Sum
Dormio (Ran Yakumo) (0):
Shadoweh (Yuuka Kazami) (2): Conqueror, NekoNekoRex, zwerdjib, Serela
Conqueror (Tenshi Hinanawi) (1): Fabloo
Serela (Koishi Komeiji) (2): Refa, Conqueror
sb (Sanae Kochiya) (1): NekoNekoRex, NekoNekoRex
Raikaria (Sunny Milk) (0):
Fabloo (Yumemi Okazaki) (0):
zwerdjib (Yuyuko Saigyouji) (0):
Refa (Reimu Hakurei) (0):
ActionDan (Rinnosuke Morichika) (0):
NekoNekoRex (Chen) (0): sb
Duskfall98 (Shinki) (1): Shadoweh, zwerdjib
Nuxl (Youki Konpaku) (0):
Niektory (Yukari Yakumo) (0):

Not voting (6): O4rfish, Raikaria, ActionDan, Duskfall98 Nuxl, Niektory

with 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have some tremendous number of nanoseconds remaining.

[Duskfall98]

Where's the slip? Assuming Rai is town? I know you said you hadn't been reading as much but I think the only person to even question it after the EoD was Nuxl.

He seems to know I'm town

[Duskfall98]

Who asked if scum has daytalk btw you are officially clear

[zwerdjib]

wait what do you "sympathize" with me about

dont understand your dormio and tommy reads

we have a similar playstyle i think. youre just better at it because you can focus on numerous people at a time. also im unused to this game site as well. thats the best way to put it tbh

dormio is just the same as my last readslist but his activity had dropped off at the time of the list (its picked up now, obviously, but hes still in that zone)

as for tommy, i kind of explained why in the post? i guess i could reread him on my lunch break, so give me about 30 mins

[zwerdjib]

Who asked if scum has daytalk btw you are officially clear

inb4 baiting to say "it was ME, TOMMY"

[Conqueror]

morning zwerd. is there a reason you're still on shadoweh?

[Conqueror]

Conq what part of 1020 made you lean scum!Serela? I actually started townreading them from the post because it looks like a genuine thought process and I don't know if Serela is brave enough to just post an abandoned case like that as scum. I don't really follow where you vote came from here?

it looks like a genuine thought process yes, and that's what makes me think he's scum and not town. it looks like his scum read on refa just dissolves because he can't keep up the pretense.

Honestly Refa's posts are relatable and adorable. They're not BLATANTLY scummy like me yelling at Shadoweh and Abu for emptyposting, but there's also a very noticeable pattern.And then this is repeated when Refa jumps on the Raikaria wago-wait what

serela, what was the noticeable pattern you were going to talk about originally? And what about Refa's vote pinged you in the first place, can you explain?

[Serela]

Sorry Serela, still trying to sort out my thoughts here. What's bothering me about you is

1) At the end of the day, it felt like you didn't really care about who got lynched
2) I can get having a hard time scumreading coming into today but it read to me like what Conq described your scum meta as

So I'd like to know

1) Why are your null reads where they are? Why can't they be town or scum reads?
2) What happened to your cases from yesterday? Legit question because I don't actually remember them.

1.If you mean, "didn't care who got lynched between Abu and Shadoweh", this is correct! However, please keep in mind, that it's because both of them are (were?) my top scumreads. A Rai lynch would have been terrible and when I realized that it was seriously heading in that direction I was like "wait what, dude, no"
2.I mean, I came into the day with more scumreads than you  8)

second question set!
1)The lurkers simply don't have enough content to judge, nor is it late enough in the game that their nonpresence itself is directly scummy. (Unfortunately for Dan's case, hard lurking is neutral regardless, but that's a different problem). Dormio's self-inflicted restriction makes it difficult for me to analyze him and this is true for most of the times that Dormio plays, simply because it's more difficult to read his posts. It's not like I HAVEN'T read them, but... it's like having an encryption layer over it and merely reading the post is suddenly only enough to get an idea of what he's trying to say, but it's harder to extract the 'feel' of it ._. Like, it's a gut-read-removal-filter. This is from the person who vigged conq D2 once based purely on a single post he made that I couldn't logically explain why it wasn't town and no one really took issue with, but I just saw it and went "...no. This feels wrong. Conq's scum". (and he did flip scum after I tortured him inthread with unreasonable questions for a little bit so I could watch him squirm :D)

I often get the scummy feeling first, and THEN try to analyze them and justify it for the rest of the players, instead of actually starting with analysis to find something that's wrong. (this is part of why my scum games tend to fall apart quickly, apart from me often just being really bad in general before mid-D2 as either alignment)

oh and nuxl just kind of spamposted over the entire day hard enough that my eyes were glazing over. TBH I can't even recall anything he did in the last 30+ hours of d1. Was he barely posting or was I glazing over them that hard? I'll have to reread that.

04rfish is hard to for me to judge because it's hard to judge people whose logic I struggle to understand. They're voting SB now right? I actually don't even have a listed opinion for SB (even a listed non-opinion), I need to reread that too

uh who's left. duskfall only showed up near the end of the day and I wasn't gonna lynch someone like a day after they showed up because how're you gonna have any reliable read that fast, so I still need to go back over that, and then dipping into my scumread part of the list well, Refa's actually on the townread part now

I haven't actually caught up with literally anything past the post from Refa I just quoted, so I'mma read up the two new pages now.

[Serela]

I haven't caught up on those two pages yet b/c the first thing I did was notice I forgot a refa question

2) What happened to your cases from yesterday? Legit question because I don't actually remember them.

I started out with a Rai sort-of-case but after that end-of-day debacle Rai is a townread. Then I had the abu case (lynched) and the shadoweh case (currently voting her). D1 I also mentioned your Rai hop rubbing me wrong but last night I had that post where I actually reread you and found out I was totally wrong there and you're a townread now! I think that covers everything I talked about looking scummy D1 already.

[Conqueror]

Conq, I think the gambit was really obvious, to me at least(“don’t hammer guys”) but seriously I think this is town!Shadoweh. Town!Shadoweh gets more annoyed while being under pressure from things she thinks are bullstrawberries and scum!Shadoweh doesn’t have the same kind of reaction, she just tries to make herself as small as possible iirc and blend in while watching townies kill each other. She is low presence but I think that’s more because she’s been swallowed up by a hella active game thread.

Wrt Oarfish: my old read on them was town, because I felt like they had conviction in their arguments even if the logic was faulty and I felt like that was more likely to come from town. I forced myself to try and pay more attention to Oarfish and Zeep on reread because my eyes tended to glaze over their posts at first, and felt worse because I didn’t actually feel like they believed their scumreads. The conviction in their arguments I felt before felt more like they believed they’d just made a really good push, but it didn’t feel like they were trying to discern anyone’s alignment.
When Nuxl asked how they would deal with reading a player who had an unconventional playstyle they flake on the answer and get mad at a completely different point, which is weird, and later they miss the point of why Dormio found their Shadoweh vote suspicious (timing instead of content). Idk, it feels like they’re wilfully ignoring things that doesn’t work with what they want to do and that bothers me a lot. I also think their Shadoweh suspicion kinda aged badly, it feels built around the fact that “Shadoweh can do better” which is not solid and honestly makes their reaction to Conq’s gambit weird. If Oarfish had a scumread on Shadoweh then why are they ignoring Conq’s ongoing push on them? You’d think that they’d show interest but most of their posting today has revolved around themselves instead, like saying that Prims was killed so he couldn’t change their read on them (when you could easily say Prims was killed because he would’ve wanted to lynch scum!Oarfish too).

Oarfish, what happened to your Shadoweh read and what do you think of what she just posted?

Well I guess I can understand Shadoweh being low presence regardless of alignment because she doesn't really play mafia anymore, but the biggest thing that pinged me was that she never tried to engage with me D1 despite all my efforts. And then it just took me fakeclaiming a result on her for her to pop in and finally respond and fairly quickly at that! Seems like she was actually reading along the thread or possibly someone alerted her to it. (The other option is that town!Shadoweh was also reading along earlier and made a conscious decision not to engage, which would annoy me on a different level if true).

Also, I didn't even read Shadoweh as annoyed before her reaction to my gambit, she felt lazy and unmotivated with a hint of doomerism. I do think her annoyance at my gambit was real but if she figured it out it was a gambit from the start then I don't see how it's alignment indicative.

I'll do a reread of oarfish after work before I can actually see if I follow that case I think. I don't know how to read oarfish. My experience with him is that he sorta marched to his own beat as town and I guess it would be true as scum too so I don't know how I'd sort him. Interested in seeing his response to you.

[Conqueror]

What definitely stood out to me as weird, however, was Conqueror's gambit to claim a result on Shadoweh. I like to think of Conqueror as being smart enough to realize beforehand how stupid the whole gambit was, but it's also not as though Conqueror tried to drag it out given how quickly and readily Conqueror was willing to drop the entire charade, so I am legitimately confused so as to what the point of the entire song and dance was.

It was pretty stupid; there's a reason why I dropped it pretty quickly after her response! I did it because I figured if there was even a 1% chance that Shadoweh would just slip up from it then it was worth a try. And if it didn't it would still likely get her to post more, which would make her more readable to me. Also, I've always wanted to do something stupid like this and seeing as I don't play mafia anymore this might be my last chance

[Fabloo]

I can't connect the dots entirely as to who Tommy is so I feel I'm missing a chunk of conversation. I'm back to not tinfoiling Dormio, his posts (still) resonate with me.

[Conqueror]

dusk, who do you even want to lynch at this point?

tommy is duskfall

[Conqueror]

Why don't you think that they're scum together?

Actually, you're right, I guess Shadoweh hasn't actually pushed Serela directly and it wouldn't be out of place for Serela to get confirmation bias on a Shadoweh buddy. Ah yes motk meta is flowing back to me despite all efforts to shut it out.
I probably shouldn't make connections like this before any flips though, I think the past few games I've tried this on sf it's been a smashing failure.

[Serela]

Refa, I'm always a lynch target and today's my day.
You murder the convincing players and lynch the unconvincing players, right?  When's the last time anyone said "Ho yes Oarfish, that argument was very persuasive. I shall now vote alongside you"
No, it's always "Oarfish is a wacky dude, he's more than likely town but who really knows"

i find this post incredibly relatable, around d3 the serela townreads are usually pretty secure but it's not like anyone ever actually liked my cases except for maybe Subterranean Animism Mafia where the mafia thought I must be a cop *sobs* NOT EVEN MY SLAM DUNK SUPER CLEAR OBVIOUS CASES IN SWORDGIRLS ANONYMAFIA THAT WERE ALSO ALL CORRECT

I MEAN THEY WERE JUST MEGA-LURKSCUM AND LURKY TUNNELSCUM THAT BUDDIED UP THE BIGGER LURKSCUM, IT WASN'T ROCKET SCIENCE (but then there was kilga the beacon of townieness so if he hadn't committed seppuku from me bus driving his NK repeatedly... oh yeah that was one of the two games ever where the mafia actually wanted to NK serela)

wait this has nothing to do with the game at hand. moving on

[talking about shadoweh] i didn't like hate their eod but totally was buying the claim as i read the page lmao so i felt justified for being pinged by them earlier itg. gun to head i'd say the reaction town but what the hell does that leave for the rest of the game right

Eh, any mafia worth their salt wouldn't immediately cave to a town reporting a night result on them, and she might not have even had an action to witness regardless of being maf. (even if not mafia goon, there's passives and junk) Or if you mean the claim, claiming early tends to feel like a more town-leaning action, even though it's not actually -hard- to do as mafia, and she had enough justification with the people talking about wagoning her (albiet it looked unlikely to happen, but it was a possibility) so eh

also yes nuxl i think raik is town

jesus christ almighty dorms that's a post
I have a bad habit of placing dorms in the 'p...robably town... and we'll not think about it for awhile... *coughs*' pile because he makes big seemingly well thought out posts but i think he does it as scum still so that's probably me being lazy *sobs* IN THE PILE HE GOES

own!Shadoweh gets more annoyed while being under pressure from things she thinks are bullstrawberries and scum!Shadoweh doesn’t have the same kind of reaction, she just tries to make herself as small as possible iirc and blend in while watching townies kill each other.

but isn't she pretty much just doing the thing you said is her scum!meta
i mean she's going to act somewhat annoyed as either alignment when a townie claimed a guilty on her (and then retracted it later) so her showing a bit of that d2 doesn't mean much

@duskfall's #1079 what the heck makes that a slip

I was asked about this in private and it made me remember that convention differs from web sight to web sight and even from game to game on a given web sight so I should be clear about it in public: Scum do have daytalk.

web sight web sight web sight

kilga confirmed for having spider vision

OK Dusk clarified why he thought that was a slip. I mean, literally the ONLY person abu had serious interest in shooting was you, so you were the person who fit :Y I was making a joke i have no current idea what I even -think- your alignment is, although tbh if you were scum I don't think it'd even occur to you that it might look like a slip, so if anything I have a (rather mild) town read off you from that alone

At this rate I'll be able to PoE! :D

serela, what was the noticeable pattern you were going to talk about originally? And what about Refa's vote pinged you in the first place, can you explain?

Oh I'm sorry, I thought it was clear already- the pattern was supposed to be Refa sheeping votes to wagon hop without providing anything that made the vote legitimate. But then I realized I was totally wrong and the Rai vote was not that. And then all the posts after that seemed... increasing not scum.

Originally I didn't realize there was a bunch of posts before the vote providing more backround and reasoning behind it, I was just like "woah this vote post looks B A D"

Also, I've always wanted to do something stupid like this

I'M PROUD OF YOU CONQ

[Conqueror]

okay i think i responded to everything in fabloo's wall wrt me.

I can't connect the dots entirely as to who Tommy is so I feel I'm missing a chunk of conversation. I'm back to not tinfoiling Dormio, his posts (still) resonate with me.

which part of dormio's posts resonate with you and made you rechange your mind on him? And what did you mean by dormio's lack of presence, just him not posting in the thread at the same time yesterday?

Serela what's your current reason for voting Shadoweh?

[Duskfall98]

dusk, who do you even want to lynch at this point?

tommy is duskfall

No idea tbh

[Duskfall98]

If all the lead wagons were town yesterday then that would suggest the people being active are actually town while scum afks but half the slots in the game haven't really done anything for me to read them on and my solve is very poor at the moment

[Serela]

my current reason for voting shadoweh is still Everything I Said Day 1 but let me just quickly reread her d2

OK, Shadoweh opens day 2 with... a votepark on Duskfall. You know, the vote whose only justification from her is "Dusk, why didn't you just ask Abu to not shoot you?". Oh wait, in a later post she revisits this-

I'm saying Abu said 'i am going to shoot Duskfall' and people, like for example, YOU, suggested that Abu is clearly faking and we should keep on the Abu train, Duskfall literally voted him to stay alive when a confirmed town would be worth his life.

...ok, I mean, at least she has a reason that's not total garbage, but still, I think this is a garbage reason. Dusk is scum because he didn't want to die for Abu's sins? This reasoning is terrible ftr. ALSO AGAIN, EVEN IF WE HAD HARD CONFIRMATION HE SHOT SOMEONE, HE COULD STILL HAVE BEEN A SERIAL KILLER, this is a 17 person game confirmed to potentially have a third party so that wasn't even remotely unlikely (well, at this point it's probably unlikely, but this is d2)

Anyway Shadoweh's voteparking on an imo bad vote and still has literally no opinions about absolutely anything else other than the most obvtown residents of obvtown, this is Bad, her D1 was Very Much Bad, she hasn't been improving, this is scummy let's lynch it etc etc

If all the lead wagons were town yesterday then that would suggest the people being active are actually town while scum afks but half the slots in the game haven't really done anything for me to read them on and my solve is very poor at the moment

tbf this would be very Motk Meta and I would be zero surprised if the scumteam turned out to be like, Niektory ActionDan NNR (not saying this is the case, but, i would not be surprised)

[Duskfall98]

This game is kinda tilting me already because I am tinfoiling everything and I feel like I am overthinking

[Duskfall98]

Shadoweh not reading the game is believable but what annoys me most is when she is in thread she ignores things people say to her because it seems to fit her narrative, but I kind of believe that is something I could see shadoweh doing as town despite it being scummy in a vacuum

[zwerdjib]

morning zwerd. is there a reason you're still on shadoweh?

no, thank you for the reminder

[Duskfall98]

If pmd hadn't been just realised I would be tunneling nuxl rn I think, but it has been released so that's an excuse why he isn't being scummy

[zwerdjib]

##unvote

ill read the rest of the thread later. i shouldnt even be here right now though

[Duskfall98]

Zwerd flipping onto my when he townread me yesterday is kinda bad I dunno why he done that out the gate today, it is bad play but again is it scummy or is it just "oh my god let's blame dusk for the mislynch"

Side note: that mislynch wasn't my fault and p much 2/3 of the game thought abu was a decent lynch so blaming one person is dumb

[Duskfall98]

Oarfish still town

Conq still town

Raik is town