Author Topic: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 1, Phase 1)  (Read 473708 times)

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zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2020, 06:28:55 PM »
Hmm.

zwerdjib, if you're this adamant about doing this massclaim, why didn't you bring it up at the start of DEFCON 3?

i dont get pinged for deadlines

meow56

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #151 on: May 31, 2020, 06:34:25 PM »
But you were in the thread before I was and never brought it up?

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #152 on: May 31, 2020, 06:36:54 PM »
suggesting we should massclaim =/= people actually massclaiming

and bulletproof may as well be Vanilla Townie if you just claim it immediately, in a game where everyone is at minimum guaranteed a vig

That’s... not what I was implying.

You want to push back against a suggestion, but you don’t give reasons for it outside of the standard. This isn’t a vanilla setup.

If you want to decline the idea of a massclaim, do your own math and your own thinking and tell me why. Be reasonable. Argue. This isn’t something we should just move past. A massclaim is really beneficial here in my eyes.

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #153 on: May 31, 2020, 06:37:40 PM »
But you were in the thread before I was and never brought it up?

touche

truth is i was busy playing warthunder and listening to queen to care about the thread

Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #154 on: May 31, 2020, 06:39:46 PM »
If you want to decline the idea of a massclaim, do your own math and your own thinking and tell me why. Be reasonable. Argue. This isn’t something we should just move past. A massclaim is really beneficial here in my eyes.[/color]
A.I uh, already did that :S
B.You seem to be missing the point that it's purely detrimental to claim your PR if the rest of the game doesn't actually claim with you.

Daiya

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #155 on: May 31, 2020, 06:43:00 PM »
radar, espionage, and battleship are all roles worth keeping alive. if they managed to get into the hands of townies, then massclaiming only serves to put them at risk. and yeah, deciding to massclaim before ppl actually agree to do it is silly, it benefits the mafia far more than it does town

Daiya

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #156 on: May 31, 2020, 06:46:49 PM »
ok there's one exception:if you got Submarine as town I think it's best to claim

half the game is probably nukes, you're just a nuke with powerful anti-town utility that's completely nullified upon claiming, and if you took it so that scum/ITP wouldn't get it, there's not much reason not to claim it
does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #157 on: May 31, 2020, 06:49:57 PM »
does anyone else have thoughts on this?
i can imagine arguments for not claiming it as well but I think it's better to do so, i would enjoy discussion on the topic!

FWIW I placed it as my top pick purely to try to stop it from falling into the hands of non-town factions, but obviously based on a request for sub claim I did not obtain the role

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #158 on: May 31, 2020, 06:56:37 PM »
A.I uh, already did that :S
B.You seem to be missing the point that it's purely detrimental to claim your PR if the rest of the game doesn't actually claim with you.


A. I mean, no. I’m obviously aware of the risks a massclaim has. All you’ve done is tell me what I’ve already thought through. Clearly, I think the benefits outweigh the risks if I’m willing to suggest it despite that. Tell me why, other than because of the known risks, this is a bad idea.

B. That’s not something I can control, but it is something that should change.



Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2020, 06:58:32 PM »
well it's not something you can control -anymore- but in the future just make sure we're actually massclaiming before you claim

Daiya

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #160 on: May 31, 2020, 07:11:09 PM »
what info advantage does the massclaim actually provide that offsets what our doc and cop can do? i don't think you've got your priorities straight here. sure, we'll know most of the setup. but with the inevitable pool of silo claims, we'll still be walking around blind while the mafia slowly picks off our power roles. i don't see it as a good trade at all.

Daiya

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #161 on: May 31, 2020, 07:29:29 PM »
gah, i almost forgot about nucleus. wanted to give him the benefit of doubt, but it feels like i'm making the same mistake again. could def see this as a gambit to secure an early town read, especially since it mirrors what he's seen in the games he read/participated in

##Vote: NucleusWaffles


raikaria

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #162 on: May 31, 2020, 07:47:55 PM »

A. I mean, no. I’m obviously aware of the risks a massclaim has. All you’ve done is tell me what I’ve already thought through. Clearly, I think the benefits outweigh the risks if I’m willing to suggest it despite that. Tell me why, other than because of the known risks, this is a bad idea.

B. That’s not something I can control, but it is something that should change.


And I think the downsides [giving mafia information about what town abilities they need to work around, as well as which targets to prioritize] are far worse than the upsides of massclaiming.

I mean, if a Town claims Battleship; they're getting nightkilled. 100%. And so on through target priority.

Also there's 9 power roles and 12 players. Unless certain power roles went unclaimed 3/4 of the playerbase have power roles of some kind, and you can be almost certain that the 4 non-town players have power roles.

Also; if people claim when they actually need to claim, such as a cornered scum, people can counter-claim them then and there. Scum can't prepare fakeclaims ahead of time based on previous PR claims.


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meow56

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #163 on: May 31, 2020, 07:49:13 PM »
DEFCON 3, Lynch Phase
Vote Count Alpha

Here's my Unofficial Votals™.

NucleusWaffles (5) - Yaersulf, Bardiche, NucleusWaffles, Serela, Daiya (L-2)
Daiya (2) - Dormio, zwerdjib
Serela (0) -
Beru (0) -
zwerdjib (0) -
Dormio (0) -
Yaersulf (0) -
Bardiche (0) -
meow56 (0) -
Raikaria (0) -
Chihiro Fujisaki (0) -
Abu (0) -

Not Voting (5) - Beru, meow56, Raikaria, Chihiro Fujisaki, Abu

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.


[ Expired ]
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:05:13 PM by NekoNekoRex »

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #164 on: May 31, 2020, 08:04:21 PM »
And I think the downsides [giving mafia information about what town abilities they need to work around, as well as which targets to prioritize] are far worse than the upsides of massclaiming.

I mean, if a Town claims Battleship; they're getting nightkilled. 100%. And so on through target priority.

Also there's 9 power roles and 12 players. Unless certain power roles went unclaimed 3/4 of the playerbase have power roles of some kind, and you can be almost certain that the 4 non-town players have power roles.

Also; if people claim when they actually need to claim, such as a cornered scum, people can counter-claim them then and there. Scum can't prepare fakeclaims ahead of time based on previous PR claims.

see, this is how you argue

raikaria is probably town

Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2020, 08:16:28 PM »
raikaria is probably town
uhm, lmao

role semantics are literally the easiest thing to discuss as scum

NekoNekoRex

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2020, 08:22:14 PM »
Chihiro Fujisaki has requested a replacement.
Kilga is this right; like is this person seriously the player, and it's not some alias or something that's designed to be deliberately obfuscating? NekoNekoRex. Who the hell is that :C   ~Poya Aaaa (Serela), Bunny Must Die Mafia

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2020, 08:24:05 PM »
uhm, lmao

role semantics are literally the easiest thing to discuss as scum

eh.

Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2020, 08:29:25 PM »
i might be talking a bit cavalier, it's really hot and i'm tired and want to eat this sandwich and spend the rest of the day in bed next to a fan, but basically yes. I usually play around role shenanigans the same regardless of alignment (unless the situation as scum makes it -very- important to desperately do otherwise) and it's very, very easy to talk roles and semantics to look like contributing scum

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2020, 09:11:53 PM »
i might be talking a bit cavalier, it's really hot and i'm tired and want to eat this sandwich and spend the rest of the day in bed next to a fan, but basically yes. I usually play around role shenanigans the same regardless of alignment (unless the situation as scum makes it -very- important to desperately do otherwise) and it's very, very easy to talk roles and semantics to look like contributing scum

but does scum raikaria know this

Serela

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2020, 10:34:36 PM »
does
scum raikaria know to not publically act anti-town???? i don't know do they


raikaria has played a lot of mafia games.

NucleusWaffles

Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2020, 11:25:45 PM »
Taking a page from Smartbomb's analysis, the activity flurry either means scum is uncomfortable with the gamestate, or is pursuing the gamestate intently to shape it.

I am assuming town is directionless at the moment, as only the informed minority knows about the stakes of my lynch.




Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2020, 11:52:00 PM »
Even more coolio.

##Unvote
##Vote: zwerdjib

I don't like the attempts to push a massclaim and, as Selery mentioned, I also dislike his generating of a townread by asking Raikaria to explain basic game theory. I think that this is a really easy/lazy way of pretending to look like you're contributing to the game state without having to actually push a solid read.
On top of that, he's being contradictory as well. He votes for Daiya in this post because Daiya states that he refuses to go along with the massclaim idea, yet in this post Raikaria is okay because he's not going along with the massclaim idea.
Like, given that Raikaria has provided you with basic game theory, has your opinion with regards to Daiya changed at all? If it has, who do you think is scum?

Also conspiracy!Dorm says that NuclearWaffles is the SK and simply being audacious, to the point where he's banking on people ignoring him for the drivel that he's spouting in order to survive.

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2020, 11:57:23 PM »
Addendum to the last paragraph: But there are enough votes there already so whatever.

zwerdjib

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #174 on: June 01, 2020, 12:08:00 AM »
Even more coolio.

##Unvote
##Vote: zwerdjib

I don't like the attempts to push a massclaim and, as Selery mentioned, I also dislike his generating of a townread by asking Raikaria to explain basic game theory. I think that this is a really easy/lazy way of pretending to look like you're contributing to the game state without having to actually push a solid read.
On top of that, he's being contradictory as well. He votes for Daiya in this post because Daiya states that he refuses to go along with the massclaim idea, yet in this post Raikaria is okay because he's not going along with the massclaim idea.
Like, given that Raikaria has provided you with basic game theory, has your opinion with regards to Daiya changed at all? If it has, who do you think is scum?

Also conspiracy!Dorm says that NuclearWaffles is the SK and simply being audacious, to the point where he's banking on people ignoring him for the drivel that he's spouting in order to survive.

im going to respond to this post, but i dont think youre trying

cough

Quote
I don't like the attempts to push a massclaim

okay, devoid of any reasoning why though

Quote
and, as Selery mentioned, I also dislike his generating of a townread by asking Raikaria to explain basic game theory.

this is a meta read. alright.

to put it in the nicest way possible - i dont think raikaria says this if hes scum. here is why. i think hes too... hmm. absent-minded to think of something like this. objectively, mechanics are the easiest thing to talk about in mafia; this is true, obviously, but i dont think raikaria will comment like this for no reason.

Quote
I think that this is a really easy/lazy way of pretending to look like you're contributing to the game state without having to actually push a solid read.

sure. but thats a thought, not a fact

Quote
On top of that, he's being contradictory as well. He votes for Daiya in this post because Daiya states that he refuses to go along with the massclaim idea, yet in this post Raikaria is okay because he's not going along with the massclaim idea.

i explained this. i wasnt going to take "no" for an answer unless someone legitimately explained why without regurgitating the usual reasons. as raikaria gave me something new to work with, im considering more what i want to do with the idea of a massclaim.

and, for the record, i still dont like how daiya is playing this game. hes too passive for my liking.

Quote
Like, given that Raikaria has provided you with basic game theory, has your opinion with regards to Daiya changed at all?

above

Quote
If it has, who do you think is scum?

sure. ill tell you now that dormio (you, but i needed a word to bold) is not looking so good fmpov.
serela is probably t.
raikaria is... on the edge because hes still not here but im willing to call him t for now.
nucleus is fire trucking wild and i can see why his mindset is probably townie ish but like. dude. thats not how the videogame works. i wanna put him in nulls, and not scumread him, because i think hes just legitimately lost.
and finally, obviously, daiya, who i really dont like (the previous vote you might call an rvs one) for reasons explained above

NucleusWaffles

Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #175 on: June 01, 2020, 12:11:26 AM »
Footnote, zwerdijib fishing more a massclaim reads scum to confirm the number of silos in-game.

Dormio picking it up is townish.

Serela reads town

Bardiche reads scum, very nice and kind scum, but scum.

Yaersulf reads scum, he did not votepark last game like this, and the erratic posting times is offputting

I am trying to extend my FoS to the lurkers, but with a 5-day lynch window and the plan I proposed I find it justifiably valid for townies to be disinterested until nukes fly.

cut by a zwerdijib wall, okay, now that's really scummy.


NucleusWaffles

Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #176 on: June 01, 2020, 12:12:03 AM »
Is Dormio trolling my meta-read on him by coaching his teammates to do what he would do?!

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2020, 12:13:24 AM »
I don't think that most sane people would need any reasoning on why a massclaim early Day 1 would be a bad idea in a semi-open setup with powerful roles and think that actively pushing for this is scummy.
Also, given what you've said about raikaria giving you something to think about, are you still wanting people to massclaim?

NucleusWaffles

Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #178 on: June 01, 2020, 12:19:20 AM »
I forgot what raikaria said that I should think about.

I think the introspection is that I can't read raikaria, the giant banner is distracting and I am psychologically still in the 'He's fighting Corona, can't be evil' state.

Besides, he's not giving me too much to think about here or the last game.

In fact, its weirder why Serela would mention raikaria, the only notable merit I recall from raikaria was that he was on a winning scumteam in a 4-time-streak, and modded Urist Fortress Mafia comodded with BBM, and got into a major disagreement with Shadoweh over a blocked doc kill submission format.

Raikaria seems like a warmongering type based on his occupation (DEFEAT CORONA!) with a strong core ego, that's about what I can read.

NucleusWaffles

Re: Neo DEFCON Mafia (DEFCON 3)
« Reply #179 on: June 01, 2020, 12:28:48 AM »
Also, I must stress this flurry of activity is abnormal, it reflects significant interest whether townsided or scumsided to progress the game.

I see this activity spike as abnormal as scum/SK has limited control in whether people lurk or not.
From the votecounts, we can see most townsperons are not even there to vote committedly, that's a big tell and normal mentality with a 5-day lynch window.

Therefore, I interpret this spike of activity meaning a significant interesting event has occured behind the scenes, whether it is to the detriment of scum/town, I do not know.

But from zwerdijib's alibi we can see at least there are some conflicting drafts, and this would be proven valid if he flips town.

Or he could be scum and still didn't get the draft.