Neo Forum Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

TBH I don't think this is a mafia claim. I feel like in a 17 person game, town needs a vig. If he's just scum fishing for the town vig and that person is already voting him without claiming, fair enough, but I dunno...best case scenario is he's an ITP salty being caught for the wrong reasons. Not going to spend any effort defending what's essentially a flipped slot though.

Because as I had previously stated, O4rfish's post I had previously disliked was in my opinion the worst post thus far in the thread. At the time; Duskfall was a minor dislike; and then when I re-read I felt worse about his posts, lack of explanations and seemingly random voting.

At best it's low-effort; at worst it's outright scummy; just throwing out random statements with no backing to look like he's trying at all.

You'll also notice I've been pretty consistent with being unhappy with people for voting with little~no explanation; and I've been pushing for people to actually explain their cases and votes. [I've even specifically asked for explanations on the Shadoweh votes multiple times and they still haven't materialized].

---

Anyway; I'm awake now; and I shall be around until deadline [Deadline is 10pm my local time]. I'm actually somewhat alarmed at how close Abu is to being lynched at this point; if I'm not wrong he's L-1.

I mean, Abu's content really isn't great and doesn't really scream town, but it also doesn't seem to scream scum either. It's kind of a null read.

So I'm not inherently against lynching him, although there's a few things about his wagon which seem a little concerning:

It's Day 1. Abu hasn't been that active. Why do you think he'd have crumbed Vig so early? Dismissing his claim because 'He hasn't crumbed Vig when he's got low content and it's Day 1' seems a little... pushy.

Or Scum could be happily letting Town push the wagon, or even be busing you thinking your lynch is likly; to earn towncred.

Serela in #599 and Dormio in #600 have good points.

If NNR is a scumread why isn't he a secondary vig option after Duskfall then?

I agree with this and it's good to see someone else thinks this.

*Groans*. Another low-effort post from Duskfall; where he's basically just sheeping. Do you have these townreads for the same reasons? Do you share the null/scumreads? I really don't like things like this.

I REALLY don't like Duskfall's 'I'm willing to lynch town to save my own butt' attitude here. Especially since if he's mostly townread and a vig has said he's gonna shoot him, a power role [blocker/doc ect] that townreads him would most likely intervene.

Also I'm unsure what is meant by 'open wolfing'.

I'm not sure if this is scum throwing in the towel because he can't answer the questions, or just general frustration? I'd like you to come back and actually try to save your skin if you're town.

---

tl;dr: I'm fine with an Abu lynch, although I have concerns about Sir Arthur Ignatius Conan Touhou's pushing of said wagon; and Duskfall's 'Save my own butt' attitude.

I'd personally still rather lynch Duskfall, as his posts while I'm asleep don't townread to me on top of me already leaning scum on him.

I'm certainly not fine enough with an Abu lynch to hammer it 13 hours before deadline however.

Because I'd previously only read your posts once, and on a re-read I had a second opinion and went from null to scum. That makes sense.

And when I make cases I usually do so in such a fashion. I'll notice something I don't like; then re-read other posts and interactions around that player specifically to see if there's more, good or bad. It's like a stream of thoughts.

Okay, to me, your Oarfish and Duskfall feels like you're calling them out for things you don't like about their play rather than scum intent. You being consistent about this doesn't make me feel better about you!

I don't like how you're waffling on the guy getting lynched. If you have no strong opinions about him, at least comment on his wagon. It just reads that you don't care and don't want to tie yourself to it. Biased here but this is kinda why I'm doubting Abu will flip scum TBH.

I don't get why Duskfall not wanting to get vigged is scummy. Yes, it's self preservation, but that's not inherently scummy. Maybe if Duskfall townread Abu, I'd get it, but he really didn't.

I don't get why you're fine with the lynch, or why you're throwing shade on Prims.

[Refa]

Rereading again though, he definitely seems like scum bullstrawberriesting so I can get where the suspicion is coming from. Maybe I'm thinking too hard about the setup here and just being dumb. It's just that there are certain things I don't get, like why would he claim to vig Duskfall as scum instead of like...Niekstory (or, assuming Niekstory is scum, some other town lurker)? It's like, I'm 90% there with the issues against him but then it doesn't all add up.

Although if he does flip scum, it'd be much easier for me because I can definitely chalk some players off of the list because they'd know better than to let him claim to vig Duskfall.

[raikaria]

I don't like how you're waffling on the guy getting lynched. If you have no strong opinions about him, at least comment on his wagon. It just reads that you don't care and don't want to tie yourself to it. Biased here but this is kinda why I'm doubting Abu will flip scum TBH.

I don't get why Duskfall not wanting to get vigged is scummy. Yes, it's self preservation, but that's not inherently scummy. Maybe if Duskfall townread Abu, I'd get it, but he really didn't.

I don't get why you're fine with the lynch, or why you're throwing shade on Prims.

But... I literally commented on how I don't like Prims and Duskfall's methods of pushing his wagon? Did you even read my post to claim that? Most of my post was commenting on Abu's wagon.

Duskfall not wanting to get vigged is in itself not inherently scummy. No-one wants to be vigged. But Duskfall only seems to care about himself; not town in general. After all; a random vig is always going to have more chance to hit town than scum. And thus a vig without good reason should be avoided. I'd be less annoyed if Duskfall was concerned about it hitting town in general and not just saving his own hide. But he seems to be focused on saving his own hide, not town in general.

I'm leaning towards saying you didn't read my post with your fnal comment. I pointed out several things in Abu's posts I wasn't happy with. I'm fine with lynching Abu over most other players. Likewise; I'm unsure how you can't see why I'm unhappy with Prims. I think I explained it. Singleing me out for it is also odd; seeing as Actiondan has said the same thing.

You claim to have read the post you quote yet the conclusions and points you're drawing make absolutely no sense if you're actually done so.

---

As a aside, am I alone in really not liking NNR's recent few posts and especially his Serela vote? Is now really the time for a jokevote?

[Refa]

But... I literally commented on how I don't like Prims and Duskfall's methods of pushing his wagon? Did you even read my post to claim that? Most of my post was commenting on Abu's wagon.

Duskfall not wanting to get vigged is in itself not inherently scummy. No-one wants to be vigged. But Duskfall only seems to care about himself; not town in general. After all; a random vig is always going to have more chance to hit town than scum. And thus a vig without good reason should be avoided. I'd be less annoyed if Duskfall was concerned about it hitting town in general and not just saving his own hide. But he seems to be focused on saving his own hide, not town in general.

I'm leaning towards saying you didn't read my post with your fnal comment. I pointed out several things in Abu's posts I wasn't happy with. I'm fine with lynching Abu over most other players. Likewise; I'm unsure how you can't see why I'm unhappy with Prims. I think I explained it. Singleing me out for it is also odd; seeing as Actiondan has said the same thing.

You claim to have read the post you quote yet the conclusions and points you're drawing make absolutely no sense if you're actually done so.

---

As a aside, am I alone in really not liking NNR's recent few posts and especially his Serela vote? Is now really the time for a jokevote?

You're right, that's my fault, I could have worded that better. Yes, you commented on it, but I feel like it just cemented your Duskfall case (that's fine) and you're suspicious of Prims for being a little pushy. Like, you're bothered by him for this one thing but you're not like...looking into it? It's just surface level "oh this post is bad, so this person is scum" sort of thing.

Okay, second point is interesting. What in particular makes you think Duskfall cares about himself more than town as opposed to Duskfall cares more about himself (FHPOV confirmed townie) over an unknown?

You're just posting questions to Abu and like being fairly neutral overall. Optimistically I could call them aggressive questions, but nothing points to you actually being okay with lynching him. You're not actually saying anything here.

[Refa]

Also I forgot to followup on my questions to you Dormio SORRY I remember reading your answers and being like "seems okay I guess" but then never went back to analyze strawberries.

What makes Oarfish's case on Nuxl forced? This one is a genuine question, because I don't think I saw it that way. I don't agree with the scumslip thing making him look bad.

I feel like Zwerd trying to shut down your discussion is like, just your opinion man. No but seriously, I read it more like "okay this definitely doesn't bother me and you can pursue it however much you want but it won't sway me" kind of thing rather than telling you not to do that. What do you mean about him trying to justify other peoples' actions?

Actually Dormio, this could be fun: Can you explain why you think Raikaria is misguided as opposed to be scum? Probably will help my read on both of you.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Vote Count 1.9

O4rfish (Rumia) (0): Raikaria, Dormio Ergo Sum
Prims (Narumi Yatadera) (1): Raikaria, Shadoweh
Dormio (Ran Yakumo) (1): sb, Niektory, Xinnidy
Shadoweh (Yuuka Kazami) (1): Conqueror, Dormio Ergo Sum, ActionDan, zwerdjib, Conqueror, sb, Refa, O4rfish
Conqueror (Tenshi Hinanawi) (0): Shadoweh
Serela (Koishi Komeiji) (1): Serela, Prims, NekoNekoRex
sb (Sanae Kochiya) (0): Xinnidy
AbuHumaid (YuugenMagan) (7): Serela, Duskfall98, Conqueror, Prims, Dormio Ergo Sum, Nuxl, Serela, O4rfish
Raikaria (Sunny Milk) (2): Serela, zwerdjib, Conqueror, Prims, sb, Refa
Xinnidy (Yumemi Okazaki) (0):
zwerdjib (Yuyuko Saigyouji) (0): AbuHumaid, Dormio Ergo Sum, O4rfish, Refa, NekoNekoRex
Refa (Reimu Hakurei) (0): zwerdjib
ActionDan (Rinnosuke Morichika) (0):
NekoNekoRex (Chen) (2): zwerdjib, Niektory, O4rfish, zwerdjib
Duskfall98 (Shinki) (2): Nuxl, Raikaria, AbuHumaid
Nuxl (Youki Konpaku) (0): Prims, O4rfish, AbuHumaid, NekoNekoRex
Niektory (Yukari Yakumo) (0):

Not voting (0): Nobody!

With 17 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch someone. You have about 10 hours remaining to cast your votes.

[Refa]

Real talk, my thought process ATM is "if Prims/Conq/SB/Nuxl/Duskfall are all town, they can carry me and I don't have to do strawberries" so a lot of my motivation for bothering to come up with reads is hedging in case that isn't the case. Wait...hopefully no one else is stealing my strategy.

[Refa]

Also general question: Were people like, ever suspicious of Duskfall? Because both of the popular lynches today wanting him FSR is interesting. If I was less lazy, I would look up their reasoning, when they became suspicious, and if these suspicions happened seperate from each other but I'm uh kinda already not interested in playing any more for the day so...

[raikaria]

You're right, that's my fault, I could have worded that better. Yes, you commented on it, but I feel like it just cemented your Duskfall case (that's fine) and you're suspicious of Prims for being a little pushy. Like, you're bothered by him for this one thing but you're not like...looking into it? It's just surface level "oh this post is bad, so this person is scum" sort of thing.

Okay, second point is interesting. What in particular makes you think Duskfall cares about himself more than town as opposed to Duskfall cares more about himself (FHPOV confirmed townie) over an unknown?

You're just posting questions to Abu and like being fairly neutral overall. Optimistically I could call them aggressive questions, but nothing points to you actually being okay with lynching him. You're not actually saying anything here.

In general I tend to be... not very aggressive with my questioning. I wasn't very aggressive towards O4r and even other people I've asked questions of like those on the Shadoweh wagon. It's just my thing. It's how I operate. If I find something questionable I probe it. Usually if I'm probing it's something I find scummy. The more I'm questioning the more I'm finding suspicious. Abu is null with a slight scum leaning for me. He is not my strongest scumread [That's Duskfall], but I would lynch him within the first quarter of options I have.

I think it's specifically the wording of Duskfall's post:

Abus claim doesn't make me want to unlynch, even if he is town vig which I doubt it's neg utility to let him live and shoot me who is town and also mostly townread o think?

His attitude isn't 'He shouldn't shoot town, Viges shooting without good reason are more likly to hit Town than scum'.

It's 'he shouldn't shoot me and you guys mostly townread me right so you should lynch him so he doesn't shoot me, I'm town by the way'.

That comes across scummy to me. It's all 'me me me' not 'town town town'. It almost feels like he's using Abu's intent to Vig him to encourage anyone who townreads him to join the wagon. Especially with him saying he's perfectly happy to lynch a Town Vig in the same line. That feels really; really scummy to me.

---

Also general question: Were people like, ever suspicious of Duskfall? Because both of the popular lynches today wanting him FSR is interesting. If I was less lazy, I would look up their reasoning, when they became suspicious, and if these suspicions happened seperate from each other but I'm uh kinda already not interested in playing any more for the day so...

I mean my suspicion of him was the first suspicion of him, and I made my own case. If you're supposing me+Abu; I wouldn't be sticking my neck out to make a counterwagon on some random guy with no votes on him. I'd be going after a lurker lynch with momentum and people saying it's an alright lynch like Shadoweh.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

define Statement41
{
        Mostly because I believe that (raikaria) would be producing more coherent cases as scum since he'd have actual buddies to bounce his ideas off of instead of letting out his thoughts without a filter as he's doing now.
}
if (Reply #664)
{
        cout <<(Statement41)
}
Mostly because I believe that raikaria would be producing more coherent cases as scum since he'd have actual buddies to bounce his ideas off of instead of letting out his thoughts without a filter as he's doing now.

[Kilgamayan]

Mostly just posting this to confirm that it is indeed accurate

Vote Count 1.10

AbuHumaid (YuugenMagan) (7): Serela, Duskfall98, Conqueror, Prims, Dormio Ergo Sum, Nuxl, Serela, O4rfish
Raikaria (Sunny Milk) (3): Serela, zwerdjib, Conqueror, Prims, sb, Refa
NekoNekoRex (Chen) (2): zwerdjib, Niektory, O4rfish, zwerdjib
Duskfall98 (Shinki) (2): Nuxl, Raikaria, AbuHumaid
Prims (Narumi Yatadera) (1): Raikaria, Shadoweh
Dormio (Ran Yakumo) (1): sb, Niektory, Xinnidy
Shadoweh (Yuuka Kazami) (1): Conqueror, Dormio Ergo Sum, ActionDan, zwerdjib, Conqueror, sb, Refa, O4rfish
Serela (Koishi Komeiji) (1): Serela, Prims, NekoNekoRex
O4rfish (Rumia) (0): Raikaria, Dormio Ergo Sum
Conqueror (Tenshi Hinanawi) (0): Shadoweh
sb (Sanae Kochiya) (0): Xinnidy
Xinnidy (Yumemi Okazaki) (0):
zwerdjib (Yuyuko Saigyouji) (0): AbuHumaid, Dormio Ergo Sum, O4rfish, Refa, NekoNekoRex
Refa (Reimu Hakurei) (0): zwerdjib
ActionDan (Rinnosuke Morichika) (0):
Nuxl (Youki Konpaku) (0): Prims, O4rfish, AbuHumaid, NekoNekoRex
Niektory (Yukari Yakumo) (0):

Not voting (0): No one!

With 17 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch someone. You have just under 10 hours remaining to cast your votes.

[Duskfall98]

The reason why I'm worried about getting shot over other people is because he is shooting me, not other people lmao

[Duskfall98]

Raik when k give reasoning for my logic, don't just paintbrush saying bad when you ignore the reasoning, everything in mafia is situational and if you ignore the circumstances you're gonna mess up. Lynching town vig is obviously bad we all agree this. We want to lynch scum!

[Shadoweh]

Dusk, this isn't EiMM, you don't lose the game if you get shot.. >_> THe only reason to be worried about being shot is if you think he's town anyways.

##Unvote
##Vote: Duskfall

Besides, you could have just.. asked him to shoot someone else? With words? Or leash him, we're really going with 'quick lynch the vig before he vigs someone'? I think the reasoning around this is lazy, people fakeclaim things that can't be proven more often then extra kills.

Oarf I'm sorry if you think I should be doing more, I legit just can't keep up with the 6 pages every time I look here. I'm more of a 3 posts a day person now. Also I've been bottom tier lynchable in my last two games so :Thonk:

[Shadoweh]

ps i agree that serela's probably scum ilu celery

[Duskfall98]

Dusk, this isn't EiMM, you don't lose the game if you get shot.. >_> THe only reason to be worried about being shot is if you think he's town anyways.

##Unvote
##Vote: Duskfall

Besides, you could have just.. asked him to shoot someone else? With words? Or leash him, we're really going with 'quick lynch the vig before he vigs someone'? I think the reasoning around this is lazy, people fakeclaim things that can't be proven more often then extra kills.

Oarf I'm sorry if you think I should be doing more, I legit just can't keep up with the 6 pages every time I look here. I'm more of a 3 posts a day person now. Also I've been bottom tier lynchable in my last two games so :Thonk:

I have only read the first paragraph and have to say I am immensely disappointed already

[Shadoweh]

Also I might sleep through deadline <.< maybe? I might be awake just before actually

[Shadoweh]

Hey if you guys want something nice and safe to do, you can lynch me, a ^.^ V A N I L L A T O W N ^.^ so i can stop having to read this AND be stuck with the indignity of having no night actions

[Duskfall98]

Hey if you guys want something nice and safe to do, you can lynch me, a ^.^ V A N I L L A T O W N ^.^ so i can stop having to read this AND be stuck with the indignity of having no night actions

So why do you think I'm scummier than serela

[Niektory]

Niektory hasn't really done anything and is getting away with it. Don't understand why they voted NNR for not voting yet here; lots of people hadn't made serious votes at that time, @Niektory what made you decide to vote NNR?

I just figured voting is better than not voting, even when not serious. Only he and Duskfall98 haven't voted at all by then. No particular reason to pick NNR out of these two.

[ActionDan]

I'm agreeing with Prims that Serela's last two posts were town.  I admit I'm slightly biased because they squarely align with my own opinions for the most part

Also it's objectively safer to lynch Abu > Shadoweh the claimed vanilla town :V

I probably should be taking a look at Conq/Refa/Raikaria/NNR but not really feeling it.

[Kilgamayan]

My apology for the previous vote count, where there was an error showing Serela voting for two different players.

Vote Count 1.11

AbuHumaid (YuugenMagan) (7): Serela, Duskfall98, Conqueror, Prims, Dormio Ergo Sum, Nuxl, Serela, O4rfish
Duskfall98 (Shinki) (3): Nuxl, Raikaria, AbuHumaid, Shadoweh
Raikaria (Sunny Milk) (2): Serela, zwerdjib, Conqueror, Prims, sb, Refa
NekoNekoRex (Chen) (2): zwerdjib, Niektory, O4rfish, zwerdjib
Dormio (Ran Yakumo) (1): sb, Niektory, Xinnidy
Shadoweh (Yuuka Kazami) (1): Conqueror, Dormio Ergo Sum, ActionDan, zwerdjib, Conqueror, sb, Refa, O4rfish
Serela (Koishi Komeiji) (1): Serela, Prims, NekoNekoRex
Prims (Narumi Yatadera) (0): Raikaria, Shadoweh
O4rfish (Rumia) (0): Raikaria, Dormio Ergo Sum
Conqueror (Tenshi Hinanawi) (0): Shadoweh
sb (Sanae Kochiya) (0): Xinnidy
Xinnidy (Yumemi Okazaki) (0):
zwerdjib (Yuyuko Saigyouji) (0): AbuHumaid, Dormio Ergo Sum, O4rfish, Refa, NekoNekoRex
Refa (Reimu Hakurei) (0): zwerdjib
ActionDan (Rinnosuke Morichika) (0):
Nuxl (Youki Konpaku) (0): Prims, O4rfish, AbuHumaid, NekoNekoRex
Niektory (Yukari Yakumo) (0):

Not voting (0): No one!

With 17 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch someone. You have just under 6 hours remaining to cast your votes.

[Serela]

Man, Shadoweh, even if being low-tier is your new meta this is just like, didn't-even-skim-the-thread levels of empty posts. We're coming up on deadline, we have a big situation now, and literally the only thing you posted was "dusk you could have suggested he don't shoot you maybe". Like, way to go avoiding having literally any opinion on what's going on. Ignoring the fact that multiple people have been trying to ask Abu if he could shoot anyone else.

also lmao shadoweh already claiming as if she's legitimately a counterwagon already, which is neutral I guess but it's just really funny

Abu, sorry if you legitimately feel that town is 'just ignoring you' but we keep trying to ask you questions and your responses are generally just "No I have no opinion on anything whatsoever" apart from feeling like vigging duskfall and eventually you brought up that, yes, half the phase ago you said NNR had a vote that you mildly disagreed with (but apparently not enough to consider voting it when you had no vote?). You said just now you give up but it really feels like you gave up a long time ago :S

Niektory I understand you're new but do you have any opinion on anything that's happened after your jokevote at the start of the game. (There's nothing wrong with that because it was when jokevotes were still kosher, but, um, you've not really talked about anything else :S)

[AbuHumaid]

Okay I chilled out a little.
If you don't want me to shoot Duskfall then give me suggestions because I don't really have reads atm and I don't feel like backreading right now.
Or
Just lynch me ignoring the fact that I claimed a provable PR.

Either option works.

[Serela]

I guess enough people voiced acceptance that Shadoweh sort of IS a counterwagon

Real talk, my thought process ATM is "if Prims/Conq/SB/Nuxl/Duskfall are all town, they can carry me and I don't have to do strawberries" so a lot of my motivation for bothering to come up with reads is hedging in case that isn't the case. Wait...hopefully no one else is stealing my strategy.

Another taste of motk meta:Arthur/Prims is -really- good at looking like a glorious beacon of shining town glory when he's actually scum. He's one of the players (along with Kilga) that I'd rank as "if this person is alive in Lylo, just policy lynch them right now" because, while in general I think I have a pretty decent scumdar, I have absolutely no ability to tell when Prims is actually scum and usually just hard townread them every game. Man if I could like, ever roll cop I'd probably just hit them n1 regardless of gamestate tbh and get that nightmare out of the way, too many losses to prims

I think I did roll cop or vig once but RL roared it's massive ugly head and I had to replace out like d1

OH HEY ABU IS BACK HI ABU. TBH I'm not sure who I'd recommend yet since if we lynched someone else it'd most likely be Shadoweh, and I haven't established good reads past that

[Duskfall98]

raik

Shoot shadoweh imo if she's not gonna do anything, shoot like nnr or something i guess otherwise o dunno someone who is widely scumread

If Abu herovigs he is probably scum and we should lynch him tomorrow, if he doesn't we can deal with it again tomorrow regardless

[Duskfall98]

##unvote

##vote: raikaria

[AbuHumaid]

I might look into Prims and shoot him if his scum game is as good as Serela is saying.

[Duskfall98]

I might look into Prims and shoot him if his scum game is as good as Serela is saying.

Have you ever spoke about mafia vig theory in a game before and if you have can you link it

[Niektory]

@abu what does niek's vote on me make you think of my slot?

You confused me with someone else didn't you.

niek is either not being coached or his scumteam is really inexperienced, i think. i would usually say the former read but i just played a game where i gave someone a pass for that but it turns out their scumteam was just bottom quarter. i think this is useful to consider if it flips red! but it's probably more scum often than not if the other 3(or 4 if people don't want to include me) townreads can be found on a higher confidence, just like the last game i played on smogon

What do you mean by coaching, exactly? If you mean them talking to me directly as scum, I don't think there was an opportunity for that yet, if I understood the rules correctly. Or do you just mean me supporting them in the day thread, since I would(*) know who they are?

(*) Fake Edit: I skipped the "would" at first which would probably make someone call scumslip on me. And I suffer form strong compulsions to edit posts. @Mod just disable my edit permission pls.