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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: Hot takes
« Last post by Vance_croowa_08 on March 26, 2025, 04:21:55 PM »
Do note that looking at just the games would give you a pretty biased picture. Everyone involved in incidents are either troublemakers that push their own agendas or problem solvers that just want the former to calm down ASAP. It's not exactly a good source to judge their day-to-day personalities. That's what all the extra written material is for. But even that has to be taken in context. For example, Reimu in WaHH shows her pretty unsightly sides but that's not all she is, it's just because that's needed as reasons for Kasen to be involved with her. Basing one's perception of her on just that and the games while ignoring her nicer side she shows in the fairies manga is pretty lopsided.

Yes you're right, but i actually do take the extra material in consideration because even there sometimes the chars act like dicks, NOT ALWAYS of course but enough to grind my gears. For example, look at Cirno's interview with Aya. She purposefully makes an embarassing article about Cirno for no reason, just because she feels like it. The entire article is just needlessly mean-spirited.  Cirno gets understandably mad but Aya just berates her and even says that she should be grateful (Aya can go fire truck herself for this, and the fact that she of all people was the one who """comforted""" Cirno in PoFV is just insulting). Or the article about Youmu that pretty much confirms that Yuyuko treats her like crap by forcing her to work without paying her or giving her a break. Then there's the time where Reimu gloats about attacking and robbing a random youkai who by her own admission was just minding her business, GoU and the cross reviews where she spends most of the time saying rude stuff about other 2hus and rarely giving them a good vote. Yes, it's true that Reimu has a nice side and denying it is dishonest, but for me the negatives outweigh the positives. And you're also right about the games, they are fighting after all so a bit of strawberries-talking is expected but often it just feels too rude and mean-spirited for me. Honestly it might be a me problem cuz i tend to be very sensitive, and frankly these are video game characters we're talking about, so i shouldn't get this pressed over their feelings lol. Ultimately this is an aspect of the series whether i like it or not. And lastly all of this incessant bitching and moaning about this stuff just makes me sound like a manchild so it's better if i just stop pestering people about it
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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Last post by Suspicious person on March 26, 2025, 04:12:19 PM »
Hmmm, contemporary Touhou music discussions and analysis are ones that don't typically pop up, and as someone who is a bit opinionated and quite in favor of Touhou 17 especially, I wanna get in too. I've always been reserved when it comes to making musical analysis due to limitations pertaining to the relevant linguo plus lack of ability to distinguish the exact time signatures, but here goes :

First of all, regarding ZUN's game music, they're generally made in a way where they match specific parts of the stage (start of the stage, midboss, end of stage) AND even be arranged in a way where it capture a particular kind of mood (a rather clear objective in Touhou 17, whose motifs leans heavily into Hell and the afterlife), while in the boss themes he tries to capture certains aspects related to the boss (his reasoning for making the music such or such way can be read in his comments in the music room).

So with that in mind, here's my analysis of the stages themes for Touhou 17 first of all :

Stage 1 theme : This is Sai no Kawara. Pretty much the dead children's Limbo (heavy stuff normally), with a twist. The song opens with this weird harpsichord-like sounding instrument (not sure what the name is exactly), with strange choirs going on in the background, even bells-like instruments towards the middle : very eerie, it might as well say "haunted place". However, as we reachto the middle part of the song, Eika pops up. Choirs shut down. The squeaky instrument that played before gets more and more highkey (like I said, I'm not big on music linguo) and therefore more hopefull, less dark. This is Children's Limbo, the ghost of dead children wander about and spend their afterlife in penance, trying to pointlessly stack stones that get knocked up, yet Eika has turned the whole process into a game and a competition : the place is therefore not as sad and depresing as it should have been, but carries a bit of hope and joy, and the song reflects that before things quiet down as it prepares to loop

Stage 2 theme : The Sanzu River, basically a physical border between this world and the next. There are only the spirits who didn't reach Higan as well as creatures from more ancient era here, a friendless place where we're lost in and try to stumble or way through. The beeping instrument and the muffled ZUNpet, the repeatitiveness of it all, there's a sense of oprression as you're lost in the vast expanse of the Sanzu river ... then, boom, full stop, some semblance of normalty as we finally meet a normal(?) ish person, our potential clue towards our main goal, but then she's already gone, and we're back to the vast and uncomfortable quietude of the Sanzu River ... I like to think of the music sounding more and more clear as we reach the end of stage as symbolizing the end of our wandering about.

Stage 3 theme : Higan. Essentially the waiting room for those who are awaiting judgement for the Touhou verse. Vast expanse of red spider lillies as the eye can see, but despite this beauty, there's no life to be found. A quiet and eerie place, with nothing but ominous flowers and spirits to its name. The bells from the intro get absorbed by the main melody, where its just pleasant background noise for the muffled ZUNpet instrument, and as we reach the mid boss, where we not only get proper ZUNpets like usual, but the bells play a different tune too, a break from the monotony of Higan, before returning to business as usual. A quiet, muffled song yet with a beauty that's supported by the bells, which capture the loneliness and emptiness of Higan, yet in spite of all that, we still have the odd encounter to break the initial impression.

All in all, the first three stage from the demo are fairly eerie, capture emptiness end solitude, and the quietude provided by the muffled ZUNpet (or whatever the damn instrument's name is) as well as a generally slow pace (dunno the exact time signature but they're obviously slow and quiet sounding) are quite likely how ZUN conceives Touhou's afterlife and its empty quietude.

Stage 4 : Hell. Finally, and for real. No more melancholic nonsense, none of that corny beauty crap, it's Hell and you're gonna feel it. You're greeted by a harsh tune in the intro, a massive contrast with all the previous songs, yet there's still a bit of uncertainty with those deep pianos notes in the intro, as it builds up and up into a surprisingly relaxed melody : has the reality of it finally settled in ? We know whaat's up as the relaxed piano get absorbed into harsher ZUNtars. Yet it's not enough, we have a goal that we're searching for, more build up is necessary as we further our search, then boom, mid boss section, the first real clue towards our search, climax of the song as we dive back into the hail of bullets, there's no quiet piano anymore, only high key notes, the confidence with which we're comingfor the confrontation and the resolution of incident.

Stage 5 : Beast Metropolis. An unheard before and completely alien world, with very different value from ours. It's an actual dog eat dog, where beasts exploits beasts, and the weakest creatures of all has little choice but try to make themselves smaller in the little space given to them ... a dystopia where each and everyone is a ressource. The entire place is filled with massive skyscrapers, but beneath the pompousness of it all, the sad reality : it's not a good place to be. The slow, quiet melancholic piano tunes we get in the earlier parts of the song, captures the misery of the human spirits. But then the tempo accelerates : drums get more and more loud : it's the usual buildup towards the midboss, and guess what, it's a Haniwa ! The solution towards the sheer misery of the Human Spirits, the idols they pray for and who will vanquish the vile beasts for them, before the quietude again. Is it this quietude the return to normalcy under the beast spirits or the new Haniwa overlords ? It's not sure, but one things remain certain : it's still the Animal Realm, and it's not a good place to be ...

Stage 6 : No real impressions here, just your standard fare buildup to epicness. The song itself has parts of the final boss's theme, and as you get to the mid boss section, things relatively quiet down (but it's still part of the boss's theme). Theme of Eastern story plays as you blast your way through the silly human spirits who clearly forgot their place, meaningless distraction before the final confrontation.

Extra stage : same impression as stage 4 here overall, agressive percussion straight at the beginning in lieu of the agressive guitars, but still an agressive use of an instrument that captures the essence of Hell. It's the hell we've grown to be familiar with (we're back again), and the song overall feels less aggressive and forcceful than stage 4's aside from the more forcefull ZUNpets we get as we face the midboss, but it's more welcoming now. But we reach the end of the song and the harsh ZUNpets returns to remind you that this place is still Hell and of the threat that you're about to face ...



All in all, a relatively dramatic interpretation of the songs paired with understanding of the presented world this time. I've always considered Touhou 17's stage themes to be among the best when it comes to setting the atmosphere. Definitely quite a few ways away from SA's interpretation of Hell, where we have the adventurousness of spelunking in stage 1, the mystery and loneliness of stage 2, the festiveness of stage 3, the fanciness of Heartfelt Fancy, the loneliness and emptiness of stage 5, and the menace and bravery of stage 6. Touhou 17 tells a concise story based in the afterlife and in Hell, with undertones rooted in a dystopian form of modern society ... the instrumentation is also quite different from other titles, making Touhou 17's OST pretty interesting and unique, but probably heavy on the instruments-that-makes-it-sound-lonely on one side, and the very memorable harshness of Hell on the other



As for the characters themes, they're primarily about trying to encompass parts of the essence of characters. Therefore, my impression of them is so :

Eika's theme : the ingenious spirit who transformed Sai no Kawara's penance into a pleasant game, but no mistake here, she's got a bit of an attitude to show for those who try to cause trouble here. It's a song that tries to puff itself with a strong ZUNtar intro + ZUNriffs, but despite all that bravado, it's shows itself for what it truly is, in the cutsy repeatitive main part of the song : really just a little girl.

Urumi's theme : a weight manipulating cow-spider youkai. It sounds slow and dragged on, with suspicious instruments that try to emulate the Moo from the animals she's primarily based off. But despite the terror of the place you fight her with and her true nature, the slowness of the song reveals her for what she truly is : just a laid back youkai, quite eager to help us, possibly to break away from the monotony

Kutaka's theme : no real comment here, but it captures the liveliness of the chickens she stands for rather than any qualities / traits she has herself. A very hectic song, quite the discrepancy considering the sheer calmness of the previous stage 3 song. Chickens generally have a warm color, are associated with the sun, give the eggs you eat in the morning as well as greet the sunrise : they're very bright and cheerful creatures, and the sheer loudness and fast pace of the song captures them quite well

Kicchou's theme : one of the weirder themes. It's got like two distincts melodies, an aggressively beeping one that tries to aggrandize itself with these choirs and be threatening as when it gets faster, then, calm, slow whisttle-like instruments that keeps the insistant piano song after each time it plays ... then back to the beebing again but quieter, and then unto the whisttling. ZUN song climax typically have a lot of the previously used instruments make a return, but for her, the climax is ... quite quiet, not as loud as you'd expect of a ZUN climax, and retain the quiet, and urgent sounding tone it had previously ... all in all, a piece that doesn't grant the satisfaction of a grandiose climax but instead the pressure of one which give a sense of urgency. A relatively uncomfortable and oppressive piece, which lets you experience what feeling you'll have when confrontated by the boss of the Kiketsu Family, irresistible and insidious.

Mayumi's theme : comes off strong and slow, it's not scared or need to make a point. It's here, stalwart, and quite menacing as the guitars and beat combos come, and show it's rigidity in how its more rhythmic sections are consigned in very specific parts of the song. Highly rigid and almost mechanical, but beneath that, the bravery and resilience of the Haniwa corps : it's not afraid to get loud, to show you it's got teeth. A militaristic theme that's quite dignified in its quietude.

Keiki's theme : the craftsman god who reshaped the Beast Realm, one clay doll at a time. About as grandiose as you'd expect of, the piano just capture the glory and the greatness of such a respectable being, it's a song that's completely isolated from the struggle of the human spirits and the grudges of the animal spirits : it's pretty clear and loud, the ZUNpet gets pretty loud as it wants to sing eulogies towards her greatness, and the theme of Eastern story come around as a bonus to tell you that this is of importance. ZUN style climax is back here, it's a final boss theme-like final boss theme. Dunno what to really say here, but's it's quite a grand theme overall. No attempt to show quiet dignity like for Kanako, no reformed goddess-that-walks-among-us relaxed vibes like for Suwako, she's a major god who doesn't carry any baggage but just displays what she can do to its maximum.

Kurokoma's theme : a brave and bold sounding opening, it continues into a slow and cool, wild-west like fashion, then full stop : it gets slower. Quieter. Deeper. Darker. The piano slows down while the song gets more low key, and boom, it's back and really insistant on being low key ... and more menacing. Just like her theme, the leader of the Keiga family is a brave, bold and daring leader who is more than willing to handle the dirty deed herself, quite far from a saint. When the piano starts to slow down and you get more of those low keys, you figure it out : she's not one of the good guys. A theme that perfectly encapsulate her personality, it screams "villain" in the same vein as Seija's theme.


Overall, we still have ZUN's regular style where he set the mood with the music on one side, and tries to capture the characters on the other. Touhou 17's instrumentations is what make it stand aside from the previous games (every single one of which has their own unique vibes and instrumentation), and the insistence on fitting the mood for a Hell and afterlife game with dystopian undertones does trickle into the soundtrack imo. Games songs have a vague-ish intro before getting full blown, while music CDs can afford to have an ENTIRE track dedicated to being either the intro track of the final track with fitting mood. The lower points of the OST for me would be Urumi and Kicchou's themes, with potentially the stage 4 and extra ones with harsh instrumentations for me, but overall, I think ZUN succeeds at creating and capturing a particular kind of mood for this game.

Also no particularly big comment on the title screen, the ending screens theme, and the credits theme, just that the eerieness of the title screen (plus a relatively catchy start) makes it quite unique.
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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: Hot takes
« Last post by CyberAngel on March 26, 2025, 03:40:23 PM »
Do note that looking at just the games would give you a pretty biased picture. Everyone involved in incidents are either troublemakers that push their own agendas or problem solvers that just want the former to calm down ASAP. It's not exactly a good source to judge their day-to-day personalities. That's what all the extra written material is for. But even that has to be taken in context. For example, Reimu in WaHH shows her pretty unsightly sides but that's not all she is, it's just because that's needed as reasons for Kasen to be involved with her. Basing one's perception of her on just that and the games while ignoring her nicer side she shows in the fairies manga is pretty lopsided.
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Rumia's Party Games / Re: Nitori Quest 3 - A Z-Machine Adventure
« Last post by It's Purvis! on March 26, 2025, 03:38:23 PM »
> "Sort of. I was just curious if you had a similar opinion on that workshop compared to whatever you have at home."

>"Oh, uh, not really?" says Koa. "I wasn't really paying much attention to it."
>"You're not a craftswoman, either," Aoi says, "So you're not prone to notice these kinds of things."
>"I guess not?" Koa says, shrugging. "I mean, I noticed it was simple, but I figured that's just the way she liked it."

>_
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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: Analysis of Touhou 19 UDoALG
« Last post by CatointheMiddle on March 26, 2025, 02:18:06 PM »
This is a bit of an impression of mine, but WaHH kinda gave me the impression that we could draw a triangle that links human, hermits and onis, as in whereas hermits are humans who've controlled their desires to an unnatural extent, onis are those who've givven into them to an extreme extent. Lingering spirits generally have a bit of desire to them, even moreso for the wild and selfish animal spirits such as those in WBaWC, so I wouldn't be too surprised if that helped(?) her into getting progressively becoming an oni. Food for thought, unceratain of the pertinence of my reflexion here, but aside from that, I'm more interested in how Biten, an Youkai, would get close to Oni-fication herself rather than Zanmu.

This is a topic I've never really known how to approach. For a while there I assumed that the reason Zanmu and Biten became oni was because they absorbed the spirits of human beings (since oni are typically man-eating monsters), but I realised I had misremembered Zanmu's profile on that point so that theory went out the window.

I also considered that, related to my first theory, if someone committed a sin deep enough (in the Touhou universe) they had the potential for turning into an oni. In Biten's case this was eating the spirit in the Yamanba's Sacred Land, since the story makes it a point that that sin put her in grave danger of falling to hell (see her profile and words in Sanae's route). However, Zanmu doesn't really make sense in this theory since her profile speculates it was her eating a Youkai Beast that transformed her.

But after reconsidering the matter today, I thought perhaps it was the combination of a human nature, a beast nature, and a youkai nature which produces an oni. If this theory were true it would explain both Zanmu and Biten's transformations. Zanmu because she is a human who absorbed a Youkai Beast, and Biten because she was a monkey who presumably was near to becoming a Youkai (remember it was her specifically out of all the monkeys in the Sacred Land who Zanmu egged on to eat the spirit and she had the intelligence to understand such provocations) and who ate what was presumably the spirit of a human (since it only ever gets called by the generic term 'spirit').

There is actually some circumstantial evidence which supports this theory. In Suika's scenario Zanmu says, "Brawn and brains are what oni are all about." Zanmu herself exemplifies this, as a powerful 'intelligentsia' oni. In the sense that oni have immense strength and immense cunning, an oni exemplifies both the animalistic (strength) and the human (cunning). Zanmu's character design also reflects this, with the top of her hair straight and civilised while the ends are ragged and animalistic. Reimu's ending says of Zanmu and oni:

Quote
"An enemy who is also an ally. She's the seed of anxiety, but also feels reassuring.
If this is what oni are,
Neither humans nor animals stand a chance against them."

Oni are literally beings that in some way transcend humans and beasts as some kind of Übermensch. ZUN says something very similar to this in his UDoALG interview as well. In that sense an oni is, as you said, a human who has given reign to their desires to an extreme extent like an animal, but while simultaneously retaining their cunning and clear-headedness (they don't necessarily drown in their desires, they can master them with the force of their personality). But having gone that far oni are also beings who can transcend their desires, as ZUN notes that Zanmu doesn't really have desire per se, and is rather irresponsible as a result. As I mentioned in my analysis as well, oni are also self-righteous and selfish (as noted in Suika's ending), which fits with all of this.

This applies to Son Biten as well, as she is clearly quite powerful and vigorous, in a carefree and irresponsible kind of way. Even when something supposedly bad happens to her (Zanmu 'abandoning' her in her route) it doesn't bother her at all, in fact she thinks Zanmu is "extremely cool" for doing such a thing.

And, though I haven't read Journey to the West, I'm not surprised that ZUN made his Wukong stand-in an oni. I mean, if you read about how absurdly powerful and how much of a force of personality Sun Wukong had in the original myth he literally SOUNDS like an oni from Touhou.

Well, those are all the thoughts I have on this topic, though I feel there's more to it I'm not seeing.
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I've had this profile picture ever since i joined the forum 2 years ago, so for me it's a matter of nostalgia. Also i lost the original image file so this makes it all the more special

EDIT: The image has been found
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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: Hot takes
« Last post by Vance_croowa_08 on March 26, 2025, 01:30:43 PM »
I mean
yes.
That's the point of the series.
That's always been the sense of humour. For more than just the main characters too.
Touhou characters that lean "nice" are still the exception. This take isn't so much hot as it is confusing.

I know that, that's why i said it's one of the bad parts, just because it's supposed to be like that it doesn't make it any less obnoxious. I don't find any humor in characters being dicks to each other all the damn time, it starts to get old fast for me plus it makes me loathe them to no end. If you find this appealing ok cool, more power to you. I just don't like it
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Rumia's Party Games / Re: Seija Quest 5
« Last post by Kilgamayan on March 26, 2025, 01:29:43 PM »
> "We could certainly do that."
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Rumia's Party Games / Re: Nitori Quest 3 - A Z-Machine Adventure
« Last post by Kilgamayan on March 26, 2025, 01:29:23 PM »
> "Sort of. I was just curious if you had a similar opinion on that workshop compared to whatever you have at home."
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Touhou Addict Recovery Center / Re: Hot takes
« Last post by FamilyTeam on March 26, 2025, 01:28:46 PM »
Alright it's time i throw my 2 cents in

Most Touhou characters (the important ones) are absolutely awful jerks to the point where i actively hate them and i think it's one of the few bad things about the series, alongside the unnecessary mean-spiritedness of the early Windows era
I mean
yes.
That's the point of the series.
That's always been the sense of humour. For more than just the main characters too.
Touhou characters that lean "nice" are still the exception. This take isn't so much hot as it is confusing.
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