AI asset usage in Touhou 20

[vanyk]

Thank you for your replies.

The japanese side who gets to interact with ZUN at various conventions might find him more personable cuz they get to interact with him at real events, so I'd get why they'd have discussions about him in a more understanding way, while most of those overseas (not just the west) don't even get to meet him but experience his work and appreciate all the things that have derived from it : he can pretty much be considered to be a symbol of something else that the regular corpos and entertainment industry doesn't provide rather than just an individual tbh, and the faith and goodwill that ZUN has acquired over the years is getting heavily tested cuz of this recent AI thingy.

Agree

Besides, there is something that should be reminded, the crux of this discussion, despite all these interviews and work time reduction talk : we have a very REAL use of AI now, and its for at least a SPELLCARD BACKGROUND.

Yes

was there a serious need to use generative AI even ? How much time would having the AI model generate images over and over until something "satisfactory" came out realistically save, compared to just grabbing some stock jpeg and slapping it in game ? Cuz if its something minor but already requires AI assistance, then its a pretty unflattering look.

I have seen some theories that there ZUN wanted to say something and that the final boss might be something like AI. But that is speculation.
For now we don't know the real reason behind that and why he used that for backgrounds. (ZUN could be just lazy or just wanted to try using AI openly)

ZUN is not just some other doujin guy, he is the top dog as far as touhou doujin goes : there's the respect and admiration he gets from doing his one-man-team thingy + hard work for so long, plus the fact that wherever he publishes his work, fans can just put theirs as well, meaning that he pretty much determines what's gonna be normal or not : if ZUN gets confortable with AI, what about everyone else, does it become fair game too or will we need to wait until proper limits get chosen for AI use ?

That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.

Can Tanaka from Tokyo just generate his TH doujin and say that its just a tool that helps his vision be brought to light quickly, then occupy a real physical space in Comiket to sell it ? Is the artistic merits of AI scripting + AI being the messianic tool that bring the art to the masses gonna become a valid talking point going forward ? These are obviously very extreme examples, but kicking the floodgates of AI open brings a lot of additional considerations and concerns, and clear boundaries are gonna be needed fast. Also it's not about doujin in general, it's about touhou doujin and what will fly here, going forward (Buncha stuff restricted in Touhou guidelines is OK for general doujin anyway).

For now (as always) it is regulated by loose doujin rules, as many events don't have clear stance about AI. But, for example, Nicodosai has their stance about AI.
By the way, there are already Touhou doujinshis for which creation AI was used.

AI already puts artists on edge these day (you'll see the odd "not to be used for AI training" in artworks occasionally), due to reason that's pretty much talked about, not to mention the various people who increasingly beccome less favorable to AI due to various reasons.

The AI progress cannot be stopped, so artists have to adapt. Increasing the value of things made by humans may somewhat improve the situation.
The "not to be used for AI training" thing has already been a topic to discuss/argue between "supporters" and Anti-AI.

At this point, I pretty much expect AI generated backgrounds to be a mainstay going forward, but I hope AI (specifically generative AI) and its acceptable role get properly defined boundaries soon-ish, and doesn't get to play a more prevalent role in the future. Anyway, realistically, I think that the reasonable expectation for AI going forward is that it won't to play a much bigger role in the creative process, but at the same time, the willingness to rely on AI has already made its mark, hope it doesn't encroach in the wrong places ...

For now it is hard to say what will happen next.

Did someone send him a package with something nasty or dangerous? Because THAT'S a direct confrontation, and definitely not acceptable. Voicing one's disagreement with methods used in a work's creation is a right that every fan should have. And doing that in a quantifiable way by officially available means at a place visible to everyone would be the best way to settle this matter.

Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.

[Petitssk]

Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.

The most important thing to consider here is probably the scale at which displeasure is voiced. Doing only that should always be acceptable. For what it's worth, I do not believe anyone can or even has a right to demand that things not be done in a certain way. If ZUN feels AI is the way to go for his future works, then more power to him. However, people also have a right to voice their displeasure about this, at least unless they go overboard.

However, there are two dimensions to this whole AI-thing.

1) is the general use of it.
2) is the actual extent to which a creator does make use of it.

It's somewhat relevant here, so please let me state that I do not exactly like ZUN as a person, probably not even as a game designer. As a result of that, I also do not trust him to not use AI for more than just backgrounds, although this is a moot point - if any AI is involved at all, the game is dead to me. To be honest, I also wouldn't trust his word if he stated that, due to backlash, he has reconsidered his stance on AI. The only thing I would trust would be a genuine realization that this AI-stuff isn't all that hot. Not due to backlash, but because of actual self reflection. Due to that, I think all everyone should be doing is voicing displeasure without further escalation. Just make it clear there is an issue to some people so he is aware that the ball is in his court.

For now, the most prudent course of action is  to simply wait for clarification now that it's been made clear that there is an issue here. Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner. Frankly speaking, I can only shake my head at the people who are genuinely begging ZUN not to go with AI - if you need to go that far, the guy and the series are not worth your time. Stick with what you love and call it a day. You still have the past thirty years of works to love and that is pretty much how I intend to go with it going forward. Touhou and its characters are a significant part of my life, but that doesn't mean that I am even remotely considering dropping my principles. If ZUN wants to use AI, that is his right, but I do not give a damn about him, any future games or works in general if that's where he ends up going.

[vanyk]

Thank you for your reply. I don't know if you read my post before that one, I recommend to read it too.

The most important thing to consider here is probably the scale at which displeasure is voiced. Doing only that should always be acceptable. For what it's worth, I do not believe anyone can or even has a right to demand that things not be done in a certain way. If ZUN feels AI is the way to go for his future works, then more power to him. However, people also have a right to voice their displeasure about this, at least unless they go overboard.

Not rude words about any topics are allowed. The problem is that mamy Westerners acted rudely (from Japanese fans side). That is why Japanese fans considered that as an attack on Priest.

As a result of that, I also do not trust him to not use AI for more than just backgrounds

Well, until there will be any proofs that ZUN used AI in other things I am not going to blame him about that. Not trusting is okay.

although this is a moot point - if any AI is involved at all, the game is dead to me. To be honest, I also wouldn't trust his word if he stated that, due to backlash, he has reconsidered his stance on AI. The only thing I would trust would be a genuine realization that this AI-stuff isn't all that hot.

Well, that is your opinion. The problem is that many fans don't think like that, they don't think that using an AI (especially only for backgrounds) is a bad thing. Since the demo's release many of "supporters" were saying "yes, we know" things (+ some of them were calling Anti-AI as something like anti-science, some political stuff and many other things). So it is important to explain why AI is a bad thing. I already gave hints about that before

Due to that, I think all everyone should be doing is voicing displeasure without further escalation.

Many Japanese fans already don't take that seriously. Ruw (or some other semi-officials) may read some of the complains you make (by the, it looks like (not sure) Ruw is "moderate" Anti-AI), but that is all.

For now, the most prudent course of action is  to simply wait for clarification now that it's been made clear that there is an issue here. Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner.

For now, I think that he would continue using it.

Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner.

Understandable.

Frankly speaking, I can only shake my head at the people who are genuinely begging ZUN not to go with AI - if you need to go that far, the guy and the series are not worth your time. Stick with what you love and call it a day. You still have the past thirty years of works to love and that is pretty much how I intend to go with it going forward.

Agree. (+ there are many great fangames)

Touhou and its characters are a significant part of my life, but that doesn't mean that I am even remotely considering dropping my principles. If ZUN wants to use AI, that is his right, but I do not give a damn about him, any future games or works in general if that's where he ends up going.

Well, understandable.
Again, thank you for your reply.

[Chirei]

That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.

There is a term in English for this: The Overton Window.

It is usually used these days in regard to the sliding scale of "how casually racist you can be in public" and unfortunately it is applying just as hard to AI too.

If one guy uses it for this really tiny thing, it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in a few people's minds. Then they push the border a little more over time and it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in more ways. Then you wake up one day and suddenly it's okay to half-generate whole works using AI.

Someone like ZUN using it for anything at all is HUGE. Since he is very well-recognized all over the world, people will conflate it to a huge pass to use it for more than it should ever be considered for, regardless of what ZUN's actual intention is. That's the actual damage this can cause.

This is further amplified by how shockingly many people seem to think this is okay. This is why most anti-AI people are so quick to condemn it, because this is one slippery slope that can easily landslide into catastrophic consequences for art as a medium, and i'm not just saying this from a Western perspective.

Look at Danbooru or Twitter/Bsky artists. How many of them in their bio just list "do not repost/use for AI training", or have to put watermarks on all their works going forward stating those things? I see it a lot on JP artists as well. This is how bad the problem has gotten. I've had JP artists that I followed completely delete their online presence recently presumably because of this, since they don't think it's worth it to try to be an artist in the wake of people scraping their works for AI.

[nanami2209]

Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.

[degradingwindow]

So ZUN might have actually been living under a rock for the last 2 years?
I guess he's more of a Facebook grandma than I thought lol

[nintendonut888]

Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.

Reading the thread it sounds like this guy does not speak for ZUN or have deep contact, but exists squarely on the rules lawyer side of things, so one should not take his word as gospel for ZUN's intent - just to the extent of what his legal representative knows and doesn't know.

What's interesting though is that a Japanese account does make contact with him and give him a blog post laying out the problems with Adobe Firefly that I noted earlier in the thread, with him saying he'll "try to contact ZUN before release." So that is tangible progress. But man, it will be the most ZUN thing ever if he legitimately is not online enough to recognize the problems or even that there is drama happening.

[CyberAngel]

Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.

If you think that this should be handled differently, then how about you suggest an alternative way instead of just whining about it.

Actually, now that you mention it... Remember the first Touhou SSB clone fiasco? Western fans thought the way it was done would damage the relationship with the Japanese side. But ZUN and his team handled it calmly and professionally, and Japanese fans... just shrugged at it, as far as I know?

Seriously, the Western fandom really needs to shake off the blind reverence and overcautious approach to ZUN. He's a successful and mature family man who reaps huge benefits from us that any independent creator would dream of. Treating him like a mentally unstable teenager putting out their first works out there feels way more insulting than voicing disagreements with his decisions.

But sure, let's assume the worst case scenarios. What would be the consequences? I doubt ZUN hates making money out of thin air so he won't stop putting out games on Steam. At worst he would just come out and say "Sorry, I do what I want" and that would be that. As for Japanese fans, if something like that would make them blow up then that would indicate them already holding a lot of xenophobia, which would be a keg of powder just waiting there anyway. And that's the kind of problem that can be fixed only after getting exposed anyway.

But seriously, I feel this is making a mountain out of a molehill. I'd be surprised if my suggestion resulted in even 100 extra negative reviews. But at least it's something that can be demonstrated as a cause for dropping the game with some degree of commonality, unlike vague preference reasonings that would usually be the case.

[vanyk]

If one guy uses it for this really tiny thing, it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in a few people's minds. Then they push the border a little more over time and it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in more ways.

Well, this is how "good" and "bad" things are achieved.

Someone like ZUN using it for anything at all is HUGE. Since he is very well-recognized all over the world, people will conflate it to a huge pass to use it for more than it should ever be considered for, regardless of what ZUN's actual intention is.

I think you overestimate his influence outside Japan. The ones who wanted to use AI outside of Japan already used it, they don't need ZUN for that. In Japan it is more important, especially in doujin sphere.

This is further amplified by how shockingly many people seem to think this is okay. This is why most anti-AI people are so quick to condemn it, because this is one slippery slope that can easily landslide into catastrophic consequences for art as a medium, and i'm not just saying this from a Western perspective.

Well, people may have different opinions on this topic. For Japanese people AI is much more acceptable than in the West. And it looks like this topic lays in different sphere in Japan rather than in the West. And what bad consequences exactly? If you are about AI will kill human art, then Japanese Touhou fans will just say you that AI will make human-made art and later those ZUN's quotes.

How many of them in their bio just list "do not repost/use for AI training", or have to put watermarks on all their works going forward stating those things? I see it a lot on JP artists as well

(Most artists I watch regularly don't have them but I got your point). Many of them are "moderate" Anti-AI the others are "hardline" Anti-AI (and some of them left Touhou ). Those things are now a meme among Pro-AI fans and not taken seriously by them. I don't know the actual number of them, it is hard to say.

I've had JP artists that I followed completely delete their online presence recently presumably because of this, since they don't think it's worth it to try to be an artist in the wake of people scraping their works for AI.

I hope they do what they like. I don't know what other to say.

So ZUN might have actually been living under a rock for the last 2 years?
I guess he's more of a Facebook grandma than I thought lol

Well, he is not very active online, so sometimes he doesn't know about some current things. (but some things he knows pretty well)

Reading the thread it sounds like this guy does not speak for ZUN or have deep contact, but exists squarely on the rules lawyer side of things, so one should not take his word as gospel for ZUN's intent - just to the extent of what his legal representative knows and doesn't know.

What's interesting though is that a Japanese account does make contact with him and give him a blog post laying out the problems with Adobe Firefly that I noted earlier in the thread, with him saying he'll "try to contact ZUN before release." So that is tangible progress. But man, it will be the most ZUN thing ever if he legitimately is not online enough to recognize the problems or even that there is drama happening.

Well, he actually do more things than just legal things (for example he is responsible for gathering people to help ZUN in his booth on Reitaisais), he sometimes drinks beer with ZUN (sometimes on those radio streams) and other things.
He also posted a tweet that he forgot to add "Partial-AI use" for DLsite release, so he could know about AI from the beginning. Also from Ruw's words the AI thing was added on Steam by him. But at the same time he tried to defend ZUN from beginning.

If you think that this should be handled differently, then how about you suggest an alternative way instead of just whining about it.

One way I already showed in Touhou Cafe thread (but it might not work here).
About another way, well, the funny thing is that I am sure that many of you already know how to approach ZUN (and how other people approached him). Which thing ZUN loves very much (other than Touhou)? I think you got it. Can average fans approach him like this? Rarely, but yes. I think I gave enough details. I even gave a hint from which point it is a good idea to approach ZUN about this topic.

I really want to make an article about different ways how people tried to change things in Touhou, but I am currently stuck with another article for many months already.

Actually, now that you mention it... Remember the first Touhou SSB clone fiasco? Western fans thought the way it was done would damage the relationship with the Japanese side. But ZUN and his team handled it calmly and professionally, and Japanese fans... just shrugged at it, as far as I know?

Somewhat, yes. But that circle was not liked after that. If I remember correctly Japanese fans treated it like just another group of Westerners who did a thing that the Priest didn't like because they didn't know what is right or wrong (or something like that).

Seriously, the Western fandom really needs to shake off the blind reverence and overcautious approach to ZUN.

If I correctly understood what you meant then Westerners are already doing that. For Japanese fans these attacks are already too direct. What more serious do you offer then?

But sure, let's assume the worst case scenarios. What would be the consequences? I doubt ZUN hates making money out of thin air so he won't stop putting out games on Steam. At worst he would just come out and say "Sorry, I do what I want" and that would be that. As for Japanese fans, if something like that would make them blow up then that would indicate them already holding a lot of xenophobia, which would be a keg of powder just waiting there anyway. And that's the kind of problem that can be fixed only after getting exposed anyway.

In this case not xenophobia but just super gatekeeping (or something like that) against Anti-AI (what is already somewhat happening). About else agree.

[CyberAngel]

One way I already showed in Touhou Cafe thread (but it might not work here).
About another way, well, the funny thing is that I am sure that many of you already know how to approach ZUN (and how other people approached him). Which thing ZUN loves very much (other than Touhou)? I think you got it. Can average fans approach him like this? Rarely, but yes. I think I gave enough details. I even gave a hint from which point it is a good idea to approach ZUN about this topic.

Goodness, can you stop being coy and say your point loud and clear? Nobody wants to comb through an off-topic wall of text. If you mean approaching him personally then yeah, that's both unfeasible and inappropriate. A single person trying to present this point of view would definitely be viewed pretty weird. So no, that's not a viable alternative.

Plus again, I'm not sure how many people really care about the matter that much. Individually they tend to get mobbed by more devout Touhou fans, from what I see in other places. The way I suggested can show that in a consolidated and quantifiable way compared to how many people are okay to go with the flow. And if someone takes offense over the intended way to give feedback being used then, well, welcome to the real world.

[nintendonut888]

Again, I don't see how "being a disruptive westerner making as big a stink as possible to get their way" is going to have the intended effect, let alone how it is "part of the real world." While I don't really agree with this Japanese view of AI (and I'll note that my experience shows as diverse a set of beliefs as here in the west), understanding the prevailing views that influence ZUN's creative decision is valuable, as imo the intent here is at least as important as the usage itself.

If this is all as we think it is, then at the very least, ZUN has not become some pro-AI person who doesn't care about art or artists, nor did he intend that in his usage of it. While intention is not everything and I hope he sees the light and discontinues use of it in the future, I doubt these flights of fancy of him outsourcing game design to AI are going to happen. Like any person ZUN's views have evolved with time, and for all the decades he has proven to be a good person, I think one should approach voicing our opinions in good faith. To do otherwise I think is much more out of step with reality and the current scenario.

[CyberAngel]

Goodness. I'm not saying everyone should do this out of nowhere. I'm not suggesting spamming him with angry emails or spreading hashtags on social media to cancel him. I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.

[PapiLionesskort]

I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.

If this was the intent behind your suggestion then it might have been good to emphasise THIS point in the first place, as your original statement rather read as a tad more aggressive.

I'm moreso concerned about the other issue pertaining to the recent copyright takedowns issued by ZUN's lawyer rather than this though.

[Bonnie (1st Iteration)]

What Vanyk misses the point is that it isn't just "westerners" who were "attacking the priest", whatever that means.
If you get "attacked" by Japanese Touhou fans over disagreeing their god's stance on a controversy caused by said "god" while having vulgars in your argument. Then it's fanboyism 101 than a entire group, since even the Japanese side of things are also "attacking the priest", it's true because I've been here. Not to mention that Twitter is worthless to begin with.

[Chirei]

And what bad consequences exactly?

It's a more than just "AI art will get so good that it can just replicate human-made art". As someone who has family in the art sector and has to somewhat keep in touch of that side of the internet, it's a big burnout effect.

These artists won't even feel like it's worth it to keep going using traditional methods, even for fun, whether it be that AI could just do it better and/or someone will just steal their art anyway. Some of these people do it as a major income source.

This would cause a massive dip in knowledge (brain drain) in the art sector internationally, and discourage any future artists wanting to get into the medium for the foreseeable future, unless they were willing to sell out to AI as well.

There's also the potential outcome that no real new art comes out, and everything is just stuck on the same dataset it's been generating off of for the next few decades since AI art gets accepted as the new standard for what people should be doing.

Now perhaps the pro-AI people are right all along. Maybe this is what people actually want and people shouldn't be so hung up on how "art" is generated and what means were used to create it. A case could be made that using a line tool in a paint program is having AI draw a perfect straight line for you that most people realistically can't do with pure mouse control. I'm not here to debate that conundrum.

I just know that from my point of view, if this continues, "artists" in the future would mostly just turn into people who run scripts on other people's work, have some looks at the result until they decide "yeah that looks good enough" and consider it done. There would probably be a subset of people who only run such scripts off their own works or free resource images, but the numbers across the board would increase, and the percentage of human input and creativity across the board would start to go down the toilet.

I know you mentioned that I might have overestimated ZUN's reach outside Japan, but for every time I think Touhou is just about done since it's no longer the only franchise on the market with a mostly-female cast in the general internet sphere, I am pleasantly surprised.

Once upon a time, a massive number of us fans were concentrated in the old version of this forum, and this very forum was the one responsible for his first trip to the states at AWA. Most of them are no longer here, but they're still out there somewhere, and most everyone else from that time, along with plenty of new blood still making Touhou content or even inserting references here and there. It may not be as much recognition as his name has in Japan, but i'm willing to bet it's at least hundreds of thousands of people across the globe, and that's no small number of people that value or judge the man behind something that's a part of their lives.

If this was the intent behind your suggestion then it might have been good to emphasise THIS point in the first place, as your original statement rather read as a tad more aggressive.

I am glad I wasn't the only person who was thinking this.

[nintendonut888]

To add on to Chirei's point, something that may not be clear for someone on the Japanese side of the Internet is the sheer level of open contempt many pro-AI people have for artists and writers. There are many cases of people on twitter and related sites going up to artists and boasting that they have fed their art into AI generators to mock their efforts, and recently the largest English language fanfic site, AO3, had its entire database scraped illegally for AI training. It is not just a mere worry that artists have, but something that is regularly directed at them by proponents of AI as they steal and mock their hard work.

For a number of these people, there is what can only be described as an open disdain for artists and the creative process, and this extends all the way to the creators of these AI programs, who stand to profit the most from this mindset. And whether Adobe Firefly is "clean" or not, the way that it engaged in a "take first, ask later" approach to training from its user base shows they are just as willing to profit from the work of artists while simultaneously pushing them out of the market, as said artists are paid only a fraction of what they made before the advent of AI and now struggle to make a living.

I do not know how much this sort of thing happens on the Japanese side of things, but the amount of artists who expressly forbid training off their art, as well as the pro-AI people you say mock such restrictions suggest it isn't all that different over there, if perhaps more subtle and less openly stated. But I hope you understand why AI is so contentious in the west, and why people are in such dismay to see ZUN use it. Here, the use of AI is often seen as a statement, and many people have seen this the same way, whether or not that is what ZUN intended.

[Suspicious person]

That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.

Wow. Barely half a week in, and pro-AI is already a valid mainstream stance to take ? That's crazy to me. The fact that there are debates about this right now is proof enough that it's not something normal or easily acceptable (I even heard that there are discussions in the Chinese sphere too, meaning it's a generalized thing, not just a west-only concern). We've already gone from "it's just for backgrounds", to "AI helps for the workload", to "AI is the future & opposing AI is anti-science". See how fast the snowball grows ? And with pro-AI opinions getting normalized, I wouldn't be so surprised by AI based fanworks growing in number too ... (I've seen a single circle that has explicitely said that it makes AI stuff exclusively and upload Touhou material that is 100% AI generated, from lyrics to background pictures on youtube, which is quite unique and honest in its AI use, but I'd rather not see that as the standard).

We're all Touhou fans here, and we're all familiar with fanworks and small creators, artists & circles : it should be normal to be understanding & sympathetic of their concerns, especially about AI : yet, somehow, a pro-AI stance is already normal ? I also don't see any reason why seeing pro-AI as the new normal should be the correct stance just because some japanese fans feel that way, can't the overseas community have their own opinions as well or what ? Honestly, my view on this is that these suspicious pro-AI guys of uncertain size are primarily ZUN defenders who aligned themselves with AI because ZUN made use of it : if the main guy magically revert course, that line of thought is gonna be gone. I hope that ZUN will update his guidelines with AI in mind, not as a result of this controversy, but in response to AI's rise. I will still follow those dusty old stinky human artists and circles regardless, and possible change in fanworks remain incertain right now, but I wouldn't trust the regular guy to be more responsible nor reserved about AI use when compared to ZUN.

Also I don't wanna help further steer this discussion towards the usual AI vs artists (I believe it has been down elsewhere too), so I'll just say one thing :

The AI progress cannot be stopped, so artists have to adapt. Increasing the value of things made by humans may somewhat improve the situation.

The ZUN quote about AI's rise making human works more valuable is his opinion and point of view, not a gospel truth. But for those who are not familiar with all the AI debate, AI is this cool new thing to interact with for the normies, and a bandwagon of high potential to get in for the corporates : once AI based works of ever increasing quality keep pouring out, they'll be viewed as just another product to chose from, on the same category as whatever the outdated stinky old humans can make. Far superior output, ever increasing quality as the technology gets improved, and probably pricing too : how would the regular creator compete ? He'll be outclassed in every way. Will the regular people necessarily consider the label "No AI involved" when they choose what they want ? There's no guarantee anywhere. The "No AI" thingy will just work as an added value that works for people who are sympathetic to the hard work of creators, but for those who only care about high output of literally whatever, I don't believe the human touch will mean much. There's just gonna be unfair competition, the solution toward which is taking part in AI use too ...

I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.

Violet Detector's gotta be the ZUN game that's received the least appreciation and has less polish than your average touhou game, and the reuse of previous attack patterns is commonly used as a point of contention for VD. However, 100thBM kinda does a bit of that as well, so I don't think such or such criticism on Steam is gonna reach ZUN nor get real attention. Heck, I don't even think he reads the reviews in all of his games, even less so if they're in a bunch of different languages. I think that the only thing forced criticisms that's not even related to the games is gonna achieve is just to spread negativity and lower the quality of the discourse overall, and achieve nothing in the long term. I think that keeping the current conversation alive is the best course of action, in hope for it to reach more and more people closer to ZUN, like Ruw.

Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.

Honestly, this to me is the first tangible result of this anti-AI outcry we (not just us here but elsewhere too) have got going on. Ruw can be a bit aggro and less nuanced in his various approaches apparently, and I hope he'll have that attitude and go bring up the various AI related concerns to ZUN.