Author Topic: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?  (Read 2774 times)

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SirtheBastard

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What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« on: March 13, 2025, 05:40:40 PM »
I've no opinion on it to be honest since I'm up to date with the new stuff released, but how about you guys? Do you think the direction of Touhou is good or not?

williewillus

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2025, 07:19:03 AM »
It's hard to not be disappointed by cuts like no replays and score in Touhou 19 but in general the games are still fun enough, especially for casual players, and the music continues to surpass itself year after year (with TJD containing some of ZUN's best tracks he's ever put out).

The music is the most unreplicable part of Touhou to me, so as long as that's doing fine, I'm happy.
I do hope that ZUN's chat with Ikeda (legendary CAVE employee and worked on many of their classic shmups) inspires him to put a bit more effort into the gameplay and patterns for Touhou 20.

SirtheBastard

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2025, 02:14:48 PM »
It's hard to not be disappointed by cuts like no replays and score in Touhou 19 but in general the games are still fun enough, especially for casual players, and the music continues to surpass itself year after year (with TJD containing some of ZUN's best tracks he's ever put out).

Huh, I've never heard news about a new Touhou CD album being released, maybe I should be more active with Touhou news I guess...

I do hope that ZUN's chat with Ikeda (legendary CAVE employee and worked on many of their classic shmups) inspires him to put a bit more effort into the gameplay and patterns for Touhou 20.

HUH?!?! That's the least expected thing to happen for ZUN...

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2025, 10:18:05 PM »
I think modern day Touhou is great! The community feels big even in the west, the games are fun and challenging, and the music is better than ever. The small complaint I have is the recent commercialization of the series, primarily the mobile games which feature the usual predatory mobile game marketing and monetization practices. Though I also agree with williewillus that not having replays in 19 was a missed opportunity, and hope they make a comeback in 20!

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2025, 06:25:36 PM »
I'm not keen on being much of a downer on the newer titles, even though I do think HSiFS, WBaWC and UM were all misses and UDoALG has a good game buried somewhere under all the jank and bad decisions. The music is still for the most part good and I don't exactly think ZUN is just completely unable to make a truly great game again or something. I'm relatively excited for Touhou 20, whenever the demo for that comes out. I hope if nothing else that replays are back.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2025, 09:58:52 PM »
Must be nice to be a Touhou fan with broken speakers/headphones nowadays. Or just having no sense of musical taste or style. Because I can't fathom how can anyone hear those dissonant melodies and HORRIBLY DISTORTED instruments that the themes are plagued by lately and honestly utter even a single word of sincere praise.

Gameplay-wise, ZUN blew all his gameplay ideas on 18, not sure what can even be done anymore in 20 and on to keep things interesting.

Also, it's quite telling of how dire things are when fans have to HOPE that REPLAYS will be a feature again. You know, the vital thing for any shmup that wants to be taken seriously, and something that was always present and has only some minor issues in the past.

Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2025, 02:22:47 PM »
I've heard this before that 19 music is disliked but the theme of the last boss was really good I think (or I have no taste).

For gameplay I really liked 16 because it's a lot of fun to try and cancel alot of bullets. 19 gameplay was not great and beating it with all characters quickly became a chore.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2025, 04:29:52 PM »
When it comes to games, I feel like the newer entries (especially 17 and 18)are more friendly towards newer players and are better for a casual experience considering the gimmicks they provide, since not only you can unlock extra through an easy clear in newer games, but also because players who just aim for a clear (that is, non survivalists or even score player) can comfortably rely on games gimmick instead of just using pure skill and practice. Said gimmicks from newer games also give A LOT of option that basically allow you to survive the games better on one side, or even give more replay value / longevity to the games. It's also a pretty big help that they have made a clean break from the not-so-newer games (TD, DDC, LoLK, HSiFS)'s heavy reliance on RNG AND giving massive amounts of ressources (except for TD) to compensate

I've personally got a TH17 Youmu wolf lunatic clear with 0 lives and 1 bomb remaining despite doing VERY LITTLE practice thanks to the roaring mode + bullets cancels, while TH18 flawless Lunatic centipede runs attempts just gave something to aim and try for for quite a bit (as well as a bunch of Lunatic runs for the failed flawless centipede runs)

Furthermore 17 definitely has extra polish and more thoughts put into it since it pauses the gauge during conversations and is far of a friendlier system compared to UFO, a massive step up considered it came AFTER 16.5 and all its design issues. Likewise for TH18, which featured a bonus secret with the blank card, allowing to unlock the third card slot.

As for TH19, the introduction of the barrier pretty much changed the way to play the game into something completely different from the demo, as not only are you incentivized to use level 3 more, but also because the use of level 3 translates into an attack on the enemy side, meaning them having to react, potentially lose a barrier, try to survive until the next level 3 to use on their own. Additionally, characters using different patterns means that at a higher level of play matchup understanding AND pattern understanding ARE a thing (for example you wanna stay high against Tsukasa and try to avoid the upper middle sides against Zanmu).

The recurring issue I see with the mainline games these days is that ZUN generally fails to consider the top level of play in his game design : back to 17 and 18 for example, they're generally pretty solid with the gimmick and reliance on more static patterns, but at the highest evels, you have survivalists and score runners : survivalist don't rely on gimmicks, only pure dodging AND even ACTIVELY AVOID to use the gimmicks : 17 and 18 have TANKY ENEMIES and pretty much a system that give you options to work around that (roaring mode, ability cards), but survival means none of these options : you just play a game full of tankier enemies without relying on the gimmicks the stages are balanced around of : definitely a clunky experience.

There's also the occasional bugs from the games : the bomb to unsurvival the survival spell is a reoccuring one since TH16

Additionally, the tools that ZUN give can be considered to be less thorough when compared to the practice ones from fan made tools : regular touhou practice tools are just spellcards and full stages, but fanmade tools allow you to try specific stage sections (some SUPER hard ones that require practice exists) AND nonspells : the old Touhou practice mode can therefore be considered to be archaic and less comprehensive in comparison.

There are also a few design issues with games that take a bit from their merits :
-TH17 has got some visibility issues that pop up when you use your empowered shots ; also a super weak (and supposedly bugged) Youmu Eagle
-TH18's miracle mallet kills the scoring scene as not only makes scroll-rice-mallet Sakuya + reliance on RNG to get phoenix card (in order to suicide for Sakuya bombs and farm gold items more) combo the only viable choice AND can even reach counterstop point. The system actually work but the miracle mallet is too centralising, there probably should be a TH18 scoring category where mallet is banned or something, only solution I can think of
-TH18.5, despite being about cards, really is about the magic system, and any other build besides the one that empower the magic attack just do not compare in term of power : spamming magic attacks (+cards that makes that easier and stronger) is superior to any other choice, so it take away from the multitude of cards available
-TH19's bombs drains your gauge too, meaning a great difficulty when it comes to recovery, even moreso if the opponent is forced to react to all the crap you've sent to their screen with the bomb, leading to a ping pong game of death. Things would have been better if bombing in TH19 gave a new shield imo ; also 60% of the cards are pretty much useless
-There being less and less of the previous game's features in the newer games : TH18.5 and TH19's (a mainline game !) lack of replay AND even score

All in all, I much prefer the direction of the games these days compared to before (just dodging patterns plus lots of RNG later, no extra sauce)

My only main gripe is that PIV generation (upon which score runs are based) are generally tied to some bullet erasing option these days, grinding for PIV by repeatedly erasing bullets until timer runs (for ALL spellcards) is boring to me (I've literally snoozed at a autumn scoring run once), I hope that we'll get something more creative one of these days. Shmups are dynamics and intense, the grind and the repeatitiveness kills the momentum and I don't find a score system that encourages that to be interesting.



When it comes to the music, I'm generally pretty fine with ZUN's works, even moreso since he still add new stuff to his formula (TH19 had those chinese-y instruments for Biten plus proper choir like choirs for Zanmu). I'm less interested in super high pitched songs (like parts of Seiran's theme or the first song of Dr LFR) or ones with harsh tune (quite a few that are reliant on the ZUNtars), but I've generally enjoyed touhou soundtracks. If there's something I'd say I'd miss, it would be ZUN's style for games like PCB and IN or even Akyuu's untouched score. Also music CDs tend to have additional weird instruments, but these pretty much almost never pop up in the games. Kinda interested what he'll bring next. Also hoping to see if he's gonna give a theme for Miss iyadeguchi or Miyoi one of these days



When it comes to the world building / lore, I think the introduction of villainous figures from the animal realm yet, honestly, much better than having the Lunarian's threat as a backdrop : Lunarians are not only super distant, but the related lore and story tend to be confusing and complicated, AND their image as a near perfected, almost flawless arrogant enemy's gotta be somehow preserved. As suspicious figures behind the scenes, I think Lunarians give of an end-game boss vibe to be casually put to use. Animal realms guys are better imo cuz they are more vulgar, can get stomped without making them look bad (unless you're Kicchou in TH19), and are not only apparently very easy to work with (featured in 3 games !), but also surprisingly quite connected and easy to connect / conciliate with the world we have : there's Ran and Toutetsu, there are the various, uh, lieutenants that stay(?) in Gensokyo, there's Hell (and related people and factions) that they're connected to, there's even Okina and Zanmu, mastermind tier characters that can be associated with them... Hopefully we're gonna get back to Keiki and Mayumi one of these days.



And when it comes to themes, there are quite a few in Touhou, even moreso since ZUN uses it to ramble about contemporary stuff most of the time, but my LEAST favorite one is easily alcohool. Sure, it's the man's passion, but as a non drinker, it's something that I don't particularly care about. Oh, there's this particular kind of old booze ? Yeah, cool, whatever. The girls getting drunk is a sight I'm pretty familiar with, but as a non drinker who's seen, ahem, unsavory traces left by boozehounds (+ the smell, good heavens the smell), I just take drinking as something that's part of Touhou's identity (despite raisonably adding nothing in particular). Also people really need to stop asking ZUN what's his favorite brand of beer is in his interviews, I've seen it asked quite a few times, like come on now.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 04:36:58 PM by Suspicious person »

CyberAngel

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2025, 05:11:09 PM »
I've heard this before that 19 music is disliked but the theme of the last boss was really good I think (or I have no taste).

To be fair, 19 started to fix the instrument issues, but it's not quite there yet. Can't help but feel the remixes used are outright inferior ...except for Orin's theme because it's PRACTICALLY UNCHANGED instead.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2025, 11:38:28 PM »
I like FDS because it's racking up a body count the likes of which Touhou has never seen before.
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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2025, 03:03:47 PM »
Must be nice to be a Touhou fan with broken speakers/headphones nowadays. Or just having no sense of musical taste or style. Because I can't fathom how can anyone hear those dissonant melodies and HORRIBLY DISTORTED instruments that the themes are plagued by lately and honestly utter even a single word of sincere praise.

Gameplay-wise, ZUN blew all his gameplay ideas on 18, not sure what can even be done anymore in 20 and on to keep things interesting.

Also, it's quite telling of how dire things are when fans have to HOPE that REPLAYS will be a feature again. You know, the vital thing for any shmup that wants to be taken seriously, and something that was always present and has only some minor issues in the past.
Despite not being a fan of HSiFS through UM, I do think they have come out with a lot of really top tier bangers. The entirety of WBaWC's soundtrack could've been nothing but misses (it isn't) but Stage 6 and Keiki's theme would've made up for all of it and then some. Soundtrack is also like, by far the least of my problems with UM. Misumaru, Stage 5, Megumu, Stage 6, Chimata, Extra and Momoyo are all just as good as many of the classics to me.

As for what ZUN could do gameplay wise... I mean, moving away from cards at this point would already be heading in the right direction. I'd like a Touhou game with no silly gimmicks again honestly. At this point that would've been far more unexpected than the alternative.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2025, 07:44:02 PM »
When I first got into Touhou, Subterranean Animism's demo had been released. I remember a lot of folks weren't super happy about the additive blend glowing bullets. In UFO, there was a lot of frustration about curvy lasers and having to literally chase slowly moving resources through a waterfall of bullets. There was some groans about the checkpoint system in LoLK and not a lot of love for the possessed tools dealie in DDC. You can go back to PCB, the second game released for Windows, and see people who had nothing good to say about the story (which, to be fair, is an absolutely bonkers story).

ZUN has a pretty established track record of consistently trying out new ideas. Some people will love them, some will be kinda meh about them, some will hate them. It just what he does. I admit that not everything he's tried has thrilled me (lookin at you, Ten Desires) and I like no-frills shmups now and then, too. HSiFS is in my top five of the series. I've just come to accept that he's not likely to serve up those kinds of games all that often.

Because what I like about modern Touhou is what I've liked about the series from the beginning: he puts his all into it. He's always trying new things, creating new characters, new worlds, new stories that he'll try (and often succeed!) at weaving together with existing narratives. The mainline games don't always hit all the right notes for me, and that's fine. I'd rather he keep on doing what he does--experimenting in gameplay, music, story or whatever--than not. It's what keeps me looking forward to each new release.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2025, 02:36:45 AM »
When I first got into Touhou, Subterranean Animism's demo had been released. I remember a lot of folks weren't super happy about the additive blend glowing bullets. In UFO, there was a lot of frustration about curvy lasers and having to literally chase slowly moving resources through a waterfall of bullets. There was some groans about the checkpoint system in LoLK and not a lot of love for the possessed tools dealie in DDC. You can go back to PCB, the second game released for Windows, and see people who had nothing good to say about the story (which, to be fair, is an absolutely bonkers story).

ZUN has a pretty established track record of consistently trying out new ideas. Some people will love them, some will be kinda meh about them, some will hate them. It just what he does. I admit that not everything he's tried has thrilled me (lookin at you, Ten Desires) and I like no-frills shmups now and then, too. HSiFS is in my top five of the series. I've just come to accept that he's not likely to serve up those kinds of games all that often.

Because what I like about modern Touhou is what I've liked about the series from the beginning: he puts his all into it. He's always trying new things, creating new characters, new worlds, new stories that he'll try (and often succeed!) at weaving together with existing narratives. The mainline games don't always hit all the right notes for me, and that's fine. I'd rather he keep on doing what he does--experimenting in gameplay, music, story or whatever--than not. It's what keeps me looking forward to each new release.
To be slightly "fair', I think every new release in every established series ever kinda goes through a few phases: (usually) there's a hype cycle as the new thing is coming, then a bit of a honeymoon period, then people start to dislike it as it wears off, and then after a few weeks or maybe months opinions finally settle, after the hype and knee-jerk reactions to new stuff are in the past. TLDR I put much different stake at UFO and LoLK being side-eyed somewhat on release because of the immediate weird new things that stood out about them (UFO mechanic/somewhat trolly difficulty and Clownpiece's then controversial character design) when nowadays both are relatively well regarded games than I do DDC, which was kinda piddled on release yet to this day attracts a very mixed reception to say the least.

Still, there's some flavour of Touhou for just about anyone, so I'm glad for all the games we get and I think they all have their place and merit. There's clearly an audience for every single Touhou game out there - there are many who like HRtP and even SoEW on some level nowadays. People should enjoy what they enjoy after all, instead of caring how a game is popularly received by the community.

williewillus

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2025, 06:55:03 PM »
Must be nice to be a Touhou fan with broken speakers/headphones nowadays. Or just having no sense of musical taste or style. Because I can't fathom how can anyone hear those dissonant melodies and HORRIBLY DISTORTED instruments that the themes are plagued by lately and honestly utter even a single word of sincere praise.

I know you don't like modern games or music, which on its own I can respect. But it's incredibly hard for me to take your opinions seriously when you resort to either personal attacks or subjective judgements (that are flat-out incorrect in some cases, ask any music theorist whether Taboo Marionette is "dissonant" and they will say lol no).

This sort of rage that not everyone shares your viewpoint is tiring and contributes nothing to the discussion.

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2025, 08:20:31 PM »
Okay, I do apologize to anyone who might've felt insulted by what I said. But that doesn't change the fact that I do, in fact, get physically ill by listening to TH17 and TH18 OSTs, and after analyzing them I did successfully identify that as stemming from the issues with instruments and compositions. If you can go beyond that and enjoy the melodies then more power to you, though.

That said...

Taboo Marionette

It's quite telling that you use a track from the latest music CD as an example and not something from the games. And it also feels done in bad faith because I did point out:

To be fair, 19 started to fix the instrument issues

I haven't looked into ZUN's music CDs for a long time so I never heard that one, but I never excluded the possibility that his stuff might get more tolerable for me again, and I do see 19 as somewhat of a step to that. So, y'know, mote in my eye, beam in yours.

But while we speak about that, I do have a challenge to whoever might want to accept it - make a thread about TH17-19 music where you point out everything you like or find notable about every single track. Just like THAT thread in the old forum did. I sure enjoyed reading that one. That would give me an incentive to go into detail about what I don't like about music from those games as a response. I don't want to do a thread like that myself for two reasons. One - I don't actually enjoy bashing Touhou, or even anything I outright dislike for that matter. I'm not shy to point out what I don't like after experiencing it, but I'm not dwelling on such opinions in long term. I might throw out some bad vibes on occasion, but I don't actively stew in them. And two... I know firsthand that Touhou fandom is utterly incapable of accepting any criticism for any official content, no matter how justified or detailed it might be. So while I COULD thoroughly explain why I find Touhou music disappointing lately, I know better than to bother unless it's in dialogue with people who are willing to go into detail on such matters. So I don't want to do something that would just be seen as a hit piece, and I'm genuinely open to see some differing points of view on Touhou music I don't find good besides the generic and nondescriptive "it's fine" kind of opinions.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2025, 08:38:53 PM by CyberAngel »

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Re: What do you guys think about Current Day Touhou?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2025, 05:11:21 PM »
Okay, I do apologize to anyone who might've felt insulted by what I said. But that doesn't change the fact that I do, in fact, get physically ill by listening to TH17 and TH18 OSTs, and after analyzing them I did successfully identify that as stemming from the issues with instruments and compositions. If you can go beyond that and enjoy the melodies then more power to you, though.

That said...

It's quite telling that you use a track from the latest music CD as an example and not something from the games. And it also feels done in bad faith because I did point out:

I haven't looked into ZUN's music CDs for a long time so I never heard that one, but I never excluded the possibility that his stuff might get more tolerable for me again, and I do see 19 as somewhat of a step to that. So, y'know, mote in my eye, beam in yours.

But while we speak about that, I do have a challenge to whoever might want to accept it - make a thread about TH17-19 music where you point out everything you like or find notable about every single track. Just like THAT thread in the old forum did. I sure enjoyed reading that one. That would give me an incentive to go into detail about what I don't like about music from those games as a response. I don't want to do a thread like that myself for two reasons. One - I don't actually enjoy bashing Touhou, or even anything I outright dislike for that matter. I'm not shy to point out what I don't like after experiencing it, but I'm not dwelling on such opinions in long term. I might throw out some bad vibes on occasion, but I don't actively stew in them. And two... I know firsthand that Touhou fandom is utterly incapable of accepting any criticism for any official content, no matter how justified or detailed it might be. So while I COULD thoroughly explain why I find Touhou music disappointing lately, I know better than to bother unless it's in dialogue with people who are willing to go into detail on such matters. So I don't want to do something that would just be seen as a hit piece, and I'm genuinely open to see some differing points of view on Touhou music I don't find good besides the generic and nondescriptive "it's fine" kind of opinions.
Like I said in my previous post, the music is like the last thing I think is wrong with the newer games. I don't even most of the games from the second half of Gen 3 as games but I do still appreciate their soundtracks. Iunno what to say.

While I do think the community isn't necessarily the most objective when evaluating some things, that's any community really. It's not even as if everyone blindly likes everything, or that opinions are static. PCB went from the darling of the series to a punchline among the more gameplay-centered parts of the community, especially for Survival. DDC wasn't that well regarded when it came out and it still largely isn't. VD and HBM are heavily criticised to a fault almost. UDoALG is really split on opinions, since casuals really like it, the core gameplay audience didn't, and the ones who did went on to make their own subcommunity for it. I think it's less that Touhou players will blindly defend whatever as much as it is that there are many fans under many unrelated communities under the same Touhou umbrella, so you get a lot of different takes and there is something here for everyone.