Touhou Bar incident and its consequences

[vanyk]

Today we will talk about a topic which is not actively discussed in the West, but it shows how many things work in Touhou. We will talk about one rule: the prohibition of using Touhou as a way of a store promotion (or promotion of any other place unrelated to Touhou). We will see how one incident in 2018 led to serious changes to restrictions imposed by this rule and we see what happened later.



At first we should see how things worked before. Before 2018 there were several stores whose owners were Touhou fans didn't really hide that fact. For example, Chasho Yamazato (茶処山里) had Touhou goods at least since 2011 which were donated by visitors (Touhou fans), but they were not vocal about that. Another example is Suimusou opened in 2012, whose owner was an active Touhou fan and participated in Touhou-only Doujin events and even sold their own sake. The bar itself was less open about this (kinda), but there were rumours that the bar had a secret menu for Touhou fans.

Both stores from the side of this rule were in grey zone. While the stores contained elements that attracted Touhou fans, they did not advertise themselves as locations for Touhou fans specifically.

But there were some other important events.
In 2011, Kubo Liquor Store (久保酒店) got a license from Team Shanghai Alice to produce Ibuki Suika's Sake (伊吹萃香の酒). Since then they produced even more different Touhou Sake. In 2016, Hakurei Sake Brewery (ハクレイ酒造) made a collaboration with Reitaisai to sell sake. But these stores had these drinks just as part of their products, they didn't call themselves as a place for Touhou fans, but still such things were in grey zone.

Reitaisai already had a lot of commercial freedom and Reitaisai used it for a long time to do commercial collabs (in more details we will talk about it another time) mostly with shops, and it is not that strange that they collaborated with a sake store. Eventually, Reitaisai created the group whose name was Hakurei Shrine Worship Association (HSWA). They got a license from ZUN to organize commercial collabs. At first, they used this licence to organize collabs with shops they had worked with before. From the rule side such activities were technically in very dark grey zone, but as Reitaisai worked with these shops for a long time and the collabs were temporary, such collabs de-facto were in grey zone (we will see a little bit later how this mechanism works). But later...



In early 2018, Japanese Touhou fan Yatabe decided to open a bar called U.N.Owen (U.N.逢縁), and it was scheduled to start business on February 2. The store started a trial operation on February 2, and the number of fans visiting exceeded the owner's expectations, but it was closed due to insufficient food inventory and other reasons. The store officially opened on February 9. The bar used a lot of Touhou stuff, called themselves a "Touhou Bar" (東方バー) and used Touhou for promotion. That is why some people questioned whether the Touhou theme bar would violate the rules. On February 11, Yatabe announced that he would temporarily close the store and denied his bar's relationship with Touhou. On February 17, Yatabe stated on Twitter that ZUN prohibits the use of Touhou as store promotion, and stated that they would remove Touhou elements and operate as an ordinary bar. Yatabe directly violated the rules, that is why everything happened, and a lot of fans discussed that topic. But Yatabe didn't give up. After that the store opened again and... they remained Touhou goods (like Chasho Yamazato), continued to do Touhou food by request (technically not prohibited) and used images by visitor for promotion (technically not prohibited too). So they decided to stay in the gray zone and continue their activities, just without naming things their names.
Even though U.N.Owen Bar was not very successful, it showed the borders of allowed activities. Other stores noticed that and they became more open about their Touhou-related stuff and activities. For example, Grep Shop that before the incident were sometimes mentioning that they had Touhou stuff, after it they we saying about Touhou stuff openly (and use Touhou for advertising their online shop).



Around that time another event appeared: Boundary Satellite Cafe (秘封珈琲店). It also was announced in January 2018. Technically it is an event with elements of sales, cosplay and interaction... in cafe with special menu. But this is a regular temporary event, so it was somewhat between U.N.Owen Bar and collabs with stores by HSWA, and it was also in gray zone.

In 2019, Reitaisai faced the problem: Tokyo Olympics 2020, which meant what it would be nearly impossible to held the event in Tokyo. The owner (who is a Touhou fan) of Suzuki Liquor Store (鈴木酒店) in Shizouka decided to collaborate with Reitaisai and help them, so he discussed this problem... with the city council, and it was successful. As the result of the collaboration a lot of Touhou Collaboration Sake was produced. And as Reitaisai was postponed they decided to sell it in the store and during COVID they sold it online. Since then they were selling the sake. Interesting fact: ZUN had this sake too.
But now let's look at this situation from Reitaisai/HSWA side. There are several stores with Touhou stuff, there is an "absolutely not Touhou" bar, also there are regular cafe events by Hifuu fans and some stores collaborated with Reitaisai. So, after these HSWA could think that there is nothing wrong to organize a collaboration with a cafe themselves, isn't there? So, meet Touhou Project × Cure Maid Cafe (東方Project×キュアメイドカフェ). It is another commercial (temporary) collaboration organized by HSWA several times in 2020-2024. And from the rule side this event is not that bad comparing to previous ones (and HSWA has licence to do such things...).
Around that time another U.N.Owen bar was opened in Osaka, and "of course" it wasn't Touhou related. Comparing to previous ones it is not that noteworthy, but it is interesting that U.N.Owen bar increased its scale.

And here fans decided to make a serious step forward.



On the 14th of October 2021, a new bar was opened whose name was BAR Flandre and it called itself as "Gensokyo BAR for Touhou fans" (東方ファンの為の幻想郷BAR). They had Touhou stuff, used Touhou for promotion and had Touhou drinks. And they had no problems with such activities and this bar is still active.
So we can see how the prohibition of using Touhou as a way of a store promotion (or promotion of any other place unrelated to Touhou) changed to it is okay to use Touhou as a way of a store promotion (or promotion of any other place unrelated to Touhou) in 4 years. The people, who were interested in this, had so many activities in the (dark) grey zone that Touhou fans, semi-officials and TSA got used to them. The things, for which U.N.Owen bar was criticized in 2018, were normal in 2021. And ZUN's opinion changed too, in 2018 he was against such idea, now he has no problems with such things.
After that there were several collabs between Reitaisai and stores happened, collab with another cafe happened, and an onigiri store, whose owner is a Touhou fan, opened in 2024.

And now we will at this from another perspective. There is another kind of offline events: Touhou exhibitions. There were such events by fans since 2010s. Similar events were organised by commercial stores. Such exhibitions are a normal sight within Touhou events, with both fans and companies regularly organizing them. But in 2022 some companies and Hakurei Shrine Worship Association decided to organize well-known The Great Touhou Project Exhibition several times. Technically, this is what happened before but in much larger scale.

So we have Touhou stores which are not afraid to call themselves as Touhou places, we have full-scale commercial Touhou exhibitions. After these, many real life places stopped being so unthinkable, and one of such place was... Touhou theme park.
When Yomiuriland collaborated with HSWA to make a temporary Touhou theme park, it was not as shocking for Japanese Touhou fans (Japanese fans saw many thing I mentioned before) as it was for Western ones. HSWA used the same mechanism Touhou fans used for Touhou cafes: slowly but steadily increase the scale and seriousness of such things. If the previous thing is okay then the next thing isn't unthinkable and it is mostly okay.

U.N.Owen Bar was a very serious step in this long series of events. After this a lot of things stopped being unthinkable. Many changes happened using the same mechanism, so it is important to understand how it works. On one hand fans can use this mechanism to reduce the limitations they have, on another hand companies can do that too. So even though it may be good for fans it can also increase the commercialization of Touhou as a series.

[Branneg Xy]

But from what is explained and is presented they are,and meant to remain in the futurewere "temporary commercial collabs...  indirectly authorized by ZUN/Junýa Ota and directly authorized by the HSW,which is in turn authorized by the former"?

Excepted the later fixed case about



In early 2018, Japanese Touhou fan Yatabe decided to open a bar called U.N.Owen (U.N.逢縁), and it was scheduled to start business on February 2. The store started a trial operation on February 2, and the number of fans visiting exceeded the owner's expectations, but it was closed due to insufficient food inventory and other reasons. The store officially opened on February 9. The bar used a lot of Touhou stuff, called themselves a "Touhou Bar" (東方バー) and used Touhou for promotion. That is why some people questioned whether the Touhou theme bar would violate the rules. On February 11, Yatabe announced that he would temporarily close the store and denied his bar's relationship with Touhou. On February 17, Yatabe stated on Twitter that ZUN prohibits the use of Touhou as store promotion, and stated that they would remove Touhou elements and operate as an ordinary bar. Yatabe directly violated the rules, that is why everything happened, and a lot of fans discussed that topic. But Yatabe didn't give up. After that the store opened again and... they remained Touhou goods (like Chasho Yamazato), continued to do Touhou food by request (technically not prohibited) and used images by visitor for promotion (technically not prohibited too). So they decided to stay in the gray zone and continue their activities, just without naming things their names.
Even though U.N.Owen Bar was not very successful, it showed the borders of allowed activities. Other stores noticed that and they became more open about their Touhou-related stuff and activities. For example, Grep Shop that before the incident were sometimes mentioning that they had Touhou stuff, after it they we saying about Touhou stuff openly (and use Touhou for advertising their online shop).




U.N.Owen Bar was a very serious step in this long series of events. After this a lot of things stopped being unthinkable. Many changes happened using the same mechanism, so it is important to understand how it works. On one hand fans can use this mechanism to reduce the limitations they have, on another hand companies can do that too. So even though it may be good for fans it can also increase the commercialization of Touhou as a series.

Are there deeper mentality and trend-shifting limitations brewing "around that Authorized and Temporary Grey Areas" that would" make them to a greater degree more susceptible to them being further reduced and in danger of slipping into ' the Dark-Grey of not-so-Temporay,ambiguosly Authorized,not-easily-Fixed,Immoderate commercialization about Touhou derivates and indirectly about Touhou at the source"?

[vanyk]

But from what is explained and is presented they are,and meant to remain in the futurewere "temporary commercial collabs...  indirectly authorized by ZUN/Junýa Ota and directly authorized by the HSW,which is in turn authorized by the former"?

I am sorry, I didn't really get what you meant here.

Are there deeper mentality and trend-shifting limitations brewing "around that Authorized and Temporary Grey Areas" that would" make them to a greater degree more susceptible to them being further reduced and in danger of slipping into ' the Dark-Grey of not-so-Temporay,ambiguosly Authorized,not-easily-Fixed,Immoderate commercialization about Touhou derivates and indirectly about Touhou at the source"?

Well, most Touhou commercialization actually happens by changing "Non-Temporary Dark-Grey Areas" to "Non-Temporary Grey Areas". I am planning to do a detailed post about Touhou commercialization. For now I can say is that appearing of commercialized Touhou derivative games and their presentation on Reitaisai weren't that surprising for Japanese fans comparing to Western fans because there had been a lot of steps to that since 2000s.

About other cases of "Temporary Grey Areas" changing to "Non-Temporary Grey Areas", most (offline) commercial collabs are temporary. collaboration with Gohoyama Kumano Shrine may be an example as there were Touhou-only events near shrines, Chasho Yamazato is near one of Suwa Taisha shrines (one of sacret places for Touhou fans). There are a lot of Touhou pilgrimages to shrines, there are goods by fans in Moriya Shrine (洩矢神社). After these a non-temporary collaboration between Touhou and a shrine isn't that surprising.
Also, Grep shop may be an example too, because after temporary Touhou X stores collaborations by HSWA and Touhou Bar incident, Grep shop (as I said in the post) began to advertise itself as a shop with Touhou goods much more vocally.
But in this incident "Temporary Grey Areas" greatly sped up the processes.

About other cases of "Non-Temporary Dark-Grey Areas" changing to "Non-Temporary Grey Areas" sped up by "Temporary Grey Areas", I cannot recall them now, I am sorry.

[Suspicious person]

Hmm, haven't heard of this particular bar "incident" per se, but I'm vaguely familiar with a much older incident that is not unlike it, specifically around the time where the touhou boom was still strong and a doujin retail store (White Canvas, I believe) decided that they are gonna sell their own Touhou derivative products too (as anime goods ? it's been SO LONG I don't remember the exact details), with very clear touhou advertisement in their stores. Team ZUN took issue and it was stopped. It's bigger in scope, but basically, we have this non-ZUN affiliated business that is basically trying to do their own touhou thing but in the wrong way. Imo rather than being a defining case, it's just a typical case of someone overstepping their boundaries due to misunderstanding of the established rules. In the bar's case, I think the main issue is the use of Touhou as a main means of advertisement, which may lend to it being mistaken for an official initiative on ZUN's part (arguably goes against the guideline part that say not to be mistaken for official stuff) while not being a licensed business that may use the IP for business.

On the guidelines and the "gray zones", imo the problems stems from people not correctly identifying where the boundary lies : which practices are okay and which ones steps into the realm of commercial ? At any rate, as far as Touhou works goes in regard to the guidelines, I think the hierarchy goes somewhere like this : guideline violating works < guideline compliant works < ZUN approved works < Licensed works :

1 - Guideline violating works : self evident with obvious consequences, these are works that are not in line with the doujin spirit as seen by ZUN (and the community), be it in terms of monetisation, production, distribution, community related reasons, or even legal responsibilities. However, it's not like violating the guidelines lead to a swift and mechanical response from ZUN's team : there are for example touhou endings uploaded on youtube, fanworks that features excessive gore and cockroaches, supposedly not touhou works with non-touhou named characters that very obviously look like 2hus (cookie), even the use of 2hus for, uh, rather unsavory and politically incorrect statements or illustrations on some suspicious part of the web and twitter. In general, the non compliant works that get handled with seriousness are ones where the question of monetization is handled in a way that goes against ZUN's conception of how doujin should be, or also some whose identity and presentation may lend themselves to being confused with being official. Among monetization issues for example Dota2 had a very popular touhou map called Touhou Avatar Dream Battle, whose popularity and merits basically lead it to leak outside of the touhou sphere : there is was no issue there, HOWEVER the author of the map attempted to put monetization in there : Dota 2 mods not being part of  ZUN's approved "distribution(?)" venues, he basically had the guy who put monetization in there to stop (the guy apologized and the issue is solved, but that's an example) ; plus another example of disapproved actions being crowdfundings, which are basically no bueno but we'll get back to these later.

Past iterations of the guideline had part that stated not to use Touhou in whatever work's title (in order not to be mistaken for official stuff) but pretty much everyone does it without issue anyway (there's disclaimers instead)

2 - Guideline compliant works : self evident title here too. These are the works that ideally reflect the ideals of doujin, and a massive leeway can be seen for the works of physical nature. However, while the majority of Touhou works were made under the guidelines, the reality is that there have already been works before the guidelines were a thing, it can be said that the Touhou guidelines is a bit of a reaction towards the touhou boom from the past + a means to moderate the various touhou works. But while violation towards the guidelines is ground for team ZUN to react, the touhou guidelines actually have no legal value : it's something he came up with, and it's not like doing touhou doujin works transforms you into ZUN's employee or get you contracted to him or anything : strictly speaking, anyone who does Touhou work (especially the monetized ones) can get copyright struck by ZUN for IP infringement, and that regardless of how guideline compliant or not you're being, but he doesn't cuz he's just cool like that. It's something that can be considered to be, in very fancy philosophical terms, the Touhou social contract, where we can make touhou stuff without issue so long as we do them the way he wants (the doujin way)

3 - ZUN approved works : this is for some things that do not necessarily fit with neither the guidelines nor the ideal of doujin works for touhou : an excellent exemple would be crowdfunding : generally, ZUN's stance for it is a big fat NO + a relatively swift reaction when it comes to the non compliants (for example a certain crowdfunding fiasco that we do NOT talk about around these part that was quite a big deal in 2015) : these last few years, however have seen crowdfundings that got to take place (such as the one for Danmaku Kagura's PC version or the Kyoto Fantasy Troupe Hifuu anime ones). ZUN's okay is the most important thing (since the guidelines give the conditions for which he won't take issue with you anyway), and confusion can probably stem from works or initiatives that don't look like they fit in the scope of the guidelines or touhou doujin yet got the greenlight from ZUN.

4 - Licensed works : these ones are serious business and do not fit inside the scope of doujin but are commercial. Details of licensed initiatives cannot be clear as they are a matter of whatever team ZUN and the other party they're licensing has agreed between themselves. Gacha games with monetization or larger collaborations that uses the Touhou name as means of advertisment (for example the train stations collab (iirc, could have been buses) featuring 2hus, the rerunning Atre collabs, the maid cafes, the karaokes and arcades with touhou stuff or whatever else ... some initiatives clearly exceed the scope of doujin and are properly commercial. Whatever similarity with doujin they may have can only be owed with team ZUN's insistence on things being a certain way for the licensing. Main risk here is that even licensed, there's the risk for such or such work to do things in a way that's not really consistent with Touhou doujin values : for example, a presumably canceled gacha from last year that did very suspicious things such as doing a crowdfunding in disguise y basically allowing the to-be players to pay for some perks.

And finally, it's probably also worth it to mention that what's been allowed by the guidelines steadily expanded with time : an example would be the possibility to monetize one's content uploaded on various interwebs site ; but generally, there's a consensus among the japanese side that wherever ZUN makes his work available, you can put your stuff there too : I don't believe that's written in any previous iteration of the guidelines, but it has generally proved to be safe for those who do fanworks.

While there wasn't neccessarily a hard update for the guidelines at some various points in the past, the tacit understanding of where to put your fanwork meant that various circles quickly and freely put their works on newer sites when ZUN was ok putting his stuff there (steam, spotify, ...). Guidelines are super tolerant towards physical works (as that's where the mingling and the trading traditionally happens for doujin stuff), but the fact of the matter is that they're slowly evolving to accomodate new practices (especially new virtual spaces for distribution besides the usual doujin storess and obviously the monetization that goes with it). As such, going by my assessment, a few points can be gleaned :
- The Touhou project guidelines is a product of its time, but continues to evolve alongside contemporary touhou doujin
- ZUN is not a robot that systematically enforces the guidelines and may give leeway to some creators, respect and trust is important
- The boundary between commercial and doujin works as well as related practices need to be clearly defined

As for the conclusion, and considering a recent-ish interview where ZUN basically said that he's not really comfortable with Touhou fanwork crowdfunding cuz of uncertainty if the guys are even gonna deliver, the bottom line is that ZUN obviously don't want to risk trouble from some unrelated party doing commercial stuff with his IP but without his control : doujin is fine cuz you just make something and sell it. But a proper business venture that uses Touhou that may go wrong that is not under his supervision ? Legal trouble are annoying for all parties involved, always best to nip the issue in the bud.

[vanyk]

Hmm, haven't heard of this particular bar "incident" per se, but I'm vaguely familiar with a much older incident that is not unlike it, specifically around the time where the touhou boom was still strong and a doujin retail store (White Canvas, I believe) decided that they are gonna sell their own Touhou derivative products too (as anime goods ? it's been SO LONG I don't remember the exact details), with very clear touhou advertisement in their stores. Team ZUN took issue and it was stopped. It's bigger in scope, but basically, we have this non-ZUN affiliated business that is basically trying to do their own touhou thing but in the wrong way. Imo rather than being a defining case, it's just a typical case of someone overstepping their boundaries due to misunderstanding of the established rules.

Somewhat yes, but actually they did much more different shady things. For example they did some shady things (which are not acceptable in Doujin) on Touhou Doujin events at least since 2008. In addition they were threatening other companies which sold Touhou doujin works. But the incident you are talking about happened in 2011 because White Canvas refused to renew the contract, also WC was violating the terms of contract and TSA prohibited them to sell Ten Desires (but WC still sold it).

In the bar's case, I think the main issue is the use of Touhou as a main means of advertisement, which may lend to it being mistaken for an official initiative on ZUN's part (arguably goes against the guideline part that say not to be mistaken for official stuff) while not being a licensed business that may use the IP for business.

Yes. But later ZUN became okay with such activities, and it seems like he is not afraid of such things now. (Well, when a Touhou STG fangame calling itself Touhou they don't violating this rule, right? They don't call themself official games. And Touhou Bars and cafes don't say that they are "official" places)

On the guidelines and the "gray zones", imo the problems stems from people not correctly identifying where the boundary lies : which practices are okay and which ones steps into the realm of commercial ?

That is not the only problem. There are also unspoken rules which someone can accidentally violate because they don't know about them. Such things are common in Doujin. But there is also a problem that different people (including ZUN) understand the Doujin differently. That is why such "boundaries" are very vague.

At any rate, as far as Touhou works goes in regard to the guidelines, I think the hierarchy goes somewhere like this : guideline violating works < guideline compliant works < ZUN approved works < Licensed works

De-facto "ZUN approved works" and "Licensed works" are the same things and in Japanese Touhou community they are called "Officially approved works". (In addition, most parts in official works which were made not by ZUN are considered officially approved (for example character designs))

Guideline violating works : self evident with obvious consequences, these are works that are not in line with the doujin spirit as seen by ZUN (and the community)

"Doujin spirit" is even more vague than "doujin". And the problem is that some things may be viewed differently by ZUN and community. (Japanese fans were surprised when they found out that ZUN knows about the existence of "pirate" uploads of official Touhou music on Youtube and that he is mostly okay with this)

However, it's not like violating the guidelines lead to a swift and mechanical response from ZUN's team : there are for example touhou endings uploaded on youtube, fanworks that features excessive gore and cockroaches, supposedly not touhou works with non-touhou named characters that very obviously look like 2hus (cookie), even the use of 2hus for, uh, rather unsavory and politically incorrect statements or illustrations on some suspicious part of the web and twitter.

1) Yes, this is direct violation of rules, but I don't know if ZUN really cares about that.
2) Well, doujin world exist.
3) ZUN knows about Cookie: "ZUN: Everyone told me not to talk about Cookie☆, mainly because if I said "no", the Cookie☆ topic would have to stop". It seems like he is okay with such works.
4) There are even Touhou doujinshis related to politics. And what exactly do you mean by "politically incorrect" and where? Western and Japanese politics are not the same.

In general, the non compliant works that get handled with seriousness are ones where the question of monetization is handled in a way that goes against ZUN's conception of how doujin should be, or also some whose identity and presentation may lend themselves to being confused with being official.

Mostly agree.

Among monetization issues for example Dota2 had a very popular touhou map called Touhou Avatar Dream Battle, whose popularity and merits basically lead it to leak outside of the touhou sphere : there is was no issue there, HOWEVER the author of the map attempted to put monetization in there : Dota 2 mods not being part of  ZUN's approved "distribution(?)" venues, he basically had the guy who put monetization in there to stop (the guy apologized and the issue is solved, but that's an example)

ZUN doesn't approve paid items in Touhou PC derivative games (but it seems like he is not against DLCs).

But while violation towards the guidelines is ground for team ZUN to react, the touhou guidelines actually have no legal value

Well, TJD uploads on Youtube were struck the next day after the release of the album. And it was quite funny, because at first on Monkybiten's channel only tracks 1-10 were struke and only in a hour track 11 was struck. (I have an impression that someone gave links to ZUN team). And DMCA drama... In addition there are CC now, which are glad to help.

strictly speaking, anyone who does Touhou work (especially the monetized ones) can get copyright struck by ZUN for IP infringement, and that regardless of how guideline compliant or not you're being, but he doesn't cuz he's just cool like that.

But still, sometimes ZUN/Ruw does it.

crowdfunding

This is a very funny moment. Because the West only knows about one (rarely two) unsuccessful crowdfunding campaigns in 2014-2015 and about two crowdfunding successful campaigns in 2023-2024 after which there were some changes in guidelines. The question is: so, nothing happened between them? Spoiler: a lot of things happened. For example, regarding the topic of this thread, there was a somewhat successful crowdfunding campaign by fans to produce Touhou sake in 2020.

for example the train stations collab (iirc, could have been buses)

This one? https://eizandensha.co.jp/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/02/news_2022.02.04.pdf
In addition there were some collabs by fans (Anime Club Kofu) before.

Atre collabs, the maid cafes

It was organized with HSWA, I mentioned that in the post.

the karaokes and arcades with touhou stuff

Mostly made by semi-officials.

Main risk here is that even licensed, there's the risk for such or such work to do things in a way that's not really consistent with Touhou doujin values : for example, a presumably canceled gacha from last year that did very suspicious things such as doing a crowdfunding in disguise y basically allowing the to-be players to pay for some perks.

Some other things mentioned before are not very doujin too.

but generally, there's a consensus among the japanese side that wherever ZUN makes his work available, you can put your stuff there too

Well, fans uploaded their works on MelonBooks or Booth before ZUN mentioned them in guidelines. So this works slightly differently.

Guidelines are super tolerant towards physical works (as that's where the mingling and the trading traditionally happens for doujin stuff)

By the way, there is some food for thought. The thing you said sounds great, BUT how to achieve this in practice outside of doujin events in mid-00s when the popularity of Touhou was not very big?

- The Touhou project guidelines is a product of its time, but continues to evolve alongside contemporary touhou doujin
- ZUN is not a robot that systematically enforces the guidelines and may give leeway to some creators, respect and trust is important
- The boundary between commercial and doujin works as well as related practices need to be clearly defined

1) Agree.
2) Somewhat agree, but there are other people who can do this.
3) Agree, but it would be hard because there is no strict definition of doujin.

As for the conclusion, and considering a recent-ish interview where ZUN basically said that he's not really comfortable with Touhou fanwork crowdfunding cuz of uncertainty if the guys are even gonna deliver, the bottom line is that ZUN obviously don't want to risk trouble from some unrelated party doing commercial stuff with his IP but without his control : doujin is fine cuz you just make something and sell it. But a proper business venture that uses Touhou that may go wrong that is not under his supervision ? Legal trouble are annoying for all parties involved, always best to nip the issue in the bud.

Somewhat agree. But does ZUN control HSWA activities? Does he control commercial activities related to Touhou in other countries? (Spoiler: he doesn't)

[Suspicious person]

De-facto "ZUN approved works" and "Licensed works" are the same things and in Japanese Touhou community they are called "Officially approved works". (In addition, most parts in official works which were made not by ZUN are considered officially approved (for example character designs))

Hmmm the main difference I meant to bring up here is the legal aspect. Licensing agreement are signed, official stuff + come with the usual "licensed by Team Shanghai Alice" or so, but the "ZUN approved works" I meant to say here are the ones that have NO legal framework as a basis. The thing regarding Cookie work as an example cuz ZUN is clearly aware of it AND do nothing about it despite the use the character likeness contrary to what the guidelines say (so he can be said to have given his tacit approval here), or arguably the memories of phantasm fanime when it first came out (I  believe small changes towards the way animation is done was made in the guidelines in order to accomodate it)

Well, TJD uploads on Youtube were struck the next day after the release of the album. And it was quite funny, because at first on Monkybiten's channel only tracks 1-10 were struke and only in a hour track 11 was struck. (I have an impression that someone gave links to ZUN team). And DMCA drama... In addition there are CC now, which are glad to help.

I mean, this falls more within the realm of copyright infringement rather than touhou guideline violation. I wouldn't be surprised if Team ZUN or the guys that they got to protect their copyright on youtube paid extra attention when it comes to the newly released music CD. Newer music CDs were virtually unfindable in youtube in the past cuz copyright, but things seems to have eased up these days.

But still, sometimes ZUN/Ruw does it.

Regarding a-certain-crowdfunding-fiasco-that-shan't-be-talked-from-2015, Ruw was actually quite enthusiastic about it and excitedly showed it to ZUN. It's ZUN's "that's no good" reaction / comment to the crowdfunding initiative that got Ruw to take action, pretty much a 180° from his initial position. So dunno who all the guy copyright enforcers besides ZUN are. There was a small issue a while back where some person got a copyright claim from some unheard of company for using a touhou related song. I don't remember the details and don't quite recall if there was foul play nor who were these guys, but the anglophone overseas community basically speculated that these were the guys who handled ZUN's copyright on youtube. I could be wrong cuz it's a small "issue" that I've heard super briefly (I don't even remember what the full story behind the copyright issue was), but basically my point here is that all of the guys who protect ZUN's IP are not necessarily on the same page as him : Ruw can be aggro on matters where ZUN could be cool or the opposite, and the various entities that are in charge of such or such aspect of ZUN's copyright might not even be familiar with how things goes in the community and react excessively.

Well, fans uploaded their works on MelonBooks or Booth before ZUN mentioned them in guidelines. So this works slightly differently.

I mean these are doujin retail stores, the likes of which are approved by the guidelines. What I was mainly thinking about here would be sites such as playism (back when it wasn't closed) when ZUN put DDC there, the PS4 store back during the Play,doujin! initiative which got ZUN's okay, and pretty much Steam and Spotify nowadays. What I'd consider to be "interesting cases" here would be sites where ZUN is absent yet occasionally get some use from fan creators when it comes to the online distribution of their fan creation (for example Bandcamp, Pixiv fanbox, ...). There was also a small change towards the guidelines where ZUN allowed monetization of Touhou videos on video sharing sites, where he is virtually absent from too (he technically is on youtube but hasn't done anything with the channel ever since ISC trailer)

how to achieve this in practice outside of doujin events in mid-00s when the popularity of Touhou was not very big?

I think hypothesis and theories are uneccessary here, cuz there's already the past success of Touhou (non replicated around the time) to learn from. However circumstances have changed from then, especially considering the rise of online spaces (which gives more strenght to whatever IP gets boosted by sudden viral success) + the normalisation of non-niche categories in comiket (specifically mainstream gacha and vtubers), meaning that small grassroots IPs can't necessarily compete for the attention of the masses. Imo past success cannot be replicated with whatever means it is that allowed Touhou to grow : if there is a lesson to be learned, it would be from the side of the rise of gachas or more commercial IPs : what is it that they do that we don't ? And is it gonna be healthy for Touhou doujin to follow these successfull practices ?

Somewhat agree. But does ZUN control HSWA activities? Does he control commercial activities related to Touhou in other countries? (Spoiler: he doesn't)

Here the problem is the initiative of various people who may be familiar with touhou BUT not necessarily in touch with the scope of acceptable activities. This example isn't exactly related to ZUN directly, but take for example Shibayan records and its Tiny Adamantium arrange of Yuuka's theme. : the short of it is that some guy made a lazy """"""arrange""""" of it, SIGNED A LABEL RECORD for their """""arrange""""", had the arrange registered and protected by copyright, AND copyright struck Shibayan record (at the time) for infringingement. Without getting into to much detail about that case, I think we can all agree that the label record thingy was a tad excessive. When it comes to concluding licensing agreement, ZUN and gang are expected to perform their due diligence, and whatever scummy practices (ass in legal but not conform to our doujin ways) their partener may engage in will be unfortunate but valid : the blame would lie on ZUN and gang for not researching their partner properly and giving their license to suspicious people. However, It's completely different when it's about an independant doujin creator who does touhou stuff BUT want to handle their creation in a way that's arguably not really fitting with touhou doujin. Let's suppose for example that I make a touhou doujin called "Tenshi's great adventure", with clear depiction of characters and setting familiar to the series : there would be no issue there, HOWEVER if I decided to go to Shueisha to publish "Tenshi's great adventure" there would be problems.

So, while keeping that in mind :

3) Agree, but it would be hard because there is no strict definition of doujin.

While that's true, imo more conventional commercial practice could be used as the boundary (as in, if we can't be sure about what to call "doujin practice", at the very least be clear about commercial practices), with exceptions set for Touhou doujin established practices & acceptable distribution sites or even ZUN approved initiatives (selling your game on Steam, somehow managing to get ZUN's ok for crowdfunding ...)

[vanyk]

Hmmm the main difference I meant to bring up here is the legal aspect. Licensing agreement are signed, official stuff + come with the usual "licensed by Team Shanghai Alice" or so, but the "ZUN approved works" I meant to say here are the ones that have NO legal framework as a basis.

Okay, I got it. Agree then.

I mean, this falls more within the realm of copyright infringement rather than touhou guideline violation. I wouldn't be surprised if Team ZUN or the guys that they got to protect their copyright on youtube paid extra attention when it comes to the newly released music CD. Newer music CDs were virtually unfindable in youtube in the past cuz copyright, but things seems to have eased up these days.

Agree.

Ruw was actually quite enthusiastic about it and excitedly showed it to ZUN. It's ZUN's "that's no good" reaction / comment to the crowdfunding initiative that got Ruw to take action, pretty much a 180° from his initial position.

Are we talking about the same Ruw? He wasn't a big fan of crowdfunding.
https://x.com/Ruw/status/438923271916908545
https://x.com/Ruw/status/556732090280984576
https://x.com/Ruw/status/558199398438428672
https://x.com/Ruw/status/558214961290153984
https://x.com/Ruw/status/558857250417033216
Yes, ZUN was against it too.

So dunno who all the guy copyright enforcers besides ZUN are.

Ruw and legal companies. Also, have you heard about "anti-fan coup"?

There was a small issue a while back where some person got a copyright claim from some unheard of company for using a touhou related song. I don't remember the details and don't quite recall if there was foul play nor who were these guys, but the anglophone overseas community basically speculated that these were the guys who handled ZUN's copyright on youtube.

Are you talking about this case? https://x.com/JaimersSTG/status/1270525000093704192
Those copyright claims were by Touhou Doujin Music Distribution, organized by BANDAI Co. and Touhou semi-officials, and this was approved by ZUN.

basically my point here is that all of the guys who protect ZUN's IP are not necessarily on the same page as him : Ruw can be aggro on matters where ZUN could be cool or the opposite, and the various entities that are in charge of such or such aspect of ZUN's copyright might not even be familiar with how things goes in the community and react excessively.

Not exactly, if there is a thing that ZUN don't like, they will strike it. If they don't like something but ZUN is mostly okay with the thing they might strike it too (only if ZUN would directly say he isn't against that thing they won't do it).

What I'd consider to be "interesting cases" here would be sites where ZUN is absent yet occasionally get some use from fan creators when it comes to the online distribution of their fan creation (for example Bandcamp, Pixiv fanbox, ...).

It seems like ZUN is okay with these things.

I think hypothesis and theories are uneccessary here, cuz there's already the past success of Touhou (non replicated around the time) to learn from.

You didn't really get why I asked such question. For now, I will just say that the answer can also explain why some things happen to Touhou as a franchise.

However circumstances have changed from then, especially considering the rise of online spaces (which gives more strenght to whatever IP gets boosted by sudden viral success) + the normalisation of non-niche categories in comiket (specifically mainstream gacha and vtubers), meaning that small grassroots IPs can't necessarily compete for the attention of the masses.

Agree.

Imo past success cannot be replicated with whatever means it is that allowed Touhou to grow : if there is a lesson to be learned, it would be from the side of the rise of gachas or more commercial IPs : what is it that they do that we don't ? And is it gonna be healthy for Touhou doujin to follow these successfull practices ?

Well, a lot of things. Gachas can keep players using gambling- or gacha-addiction, and use moe-, otaku-, horny- or "cute and funny"-baits + give new content regularly. Their only competitors now are other gachas. Gachas are very profitable in mobile gaming, and PC gaming is not very popular in Japan, so gachas are spread. Also the reason why popular gachas are popular on Comiket is that those gachas have many characteristics which interest doujin circles (at first Kancolle did that, later other gachas). But Comiket is not the only place for doujin activities. In different regions of Japan different genres are popular (for example Touken Ranbu is still quite popular in doujin sphere, but it is not popular on Comiket).

When it comes to concluding licensing agreement, ZUN and gang are expected to perform their due diligence, and whatever scummy practices (ass in legal but not conform to our doujin ways) their partener may engage in will be unfortunate but valid : the blame would lie on ZUN and gang for not researching their partner properly and giving their license to suspicious people.

And such things happen. (I am not even talking about the cases of obvious commercialization when some people would blame ZUN for it)

However, It's completely different when it's about an independant doujin creator who does touhou stuff BUT want to handle their creation in a way that's arguably not really fitting with touhou doujin.

Mostly agree.

While that's true, imo more conventional commercial practice could be used as the boundary (as in, if we can't be sure about what to call "doujin practice", at the very least be clear about commercial practices)

And even this cannot always help. Here we go.
1) Crowdfunding is a doujin thing or not?
2) Getting money from business is a doujin thing or not?
3) Getting money from government is a doujin thing or not?
4) Having a real-life fanmade Touhou-cafe is doujin or commercial thing?
5) Online sales events (like the ones on pictSQUARE) are doujin events or not?
For different people the answers for these questions are different.

somehow managing to get ZUN's ok for crowdfunding ...

Well, I have shown the mechanism in the first post in this thread. Slowly making things more serious. In addition COVID sped up this process. Even HSWA did a crowdfunding campaign. In result, ZUN added in the guidelines that if you want to have a crowdfunding campagn you should consult with ZUN.

[Suspicious person]

1) Crowdfunding is a doujin thing or not?
2) Getting money from business is a doujin thing or not?
3) Getting money from government is a doujin thing or not?
4) Having a real-life fanmade Touhou-cafe is doujin or commercial thing?
5) Online sales events (like the ones on pictSQUARE) are doujin events or not?
For different people the answers for these questions are different.

Hmmmm it's a bit risky to give an authoritative answer as I'm not a researcher nor an "insider" / proper expert on the matter. In principle doujin are self published passion projects, and profit is not a priority, while profit is the most important thing in commercial activities (while I presonally believe the legal aspect ought to be considered as legally binding stuff seems a bit contrary to doujin's freedom of creation) ; furthermore, the scale of operation (be it for production, distribution, probably even marketing and merchandising) is obviously gonna be extremely limited for the hobbyist side while far superior for the more commercial side.

Here's my own interpretation of the matter :

For 1) Considering the potentially massive financial scale that crowdfunding *could* reach and how it distinguisshes itself from the usual doujin's profit-second-hobby-first motive, it can be said to be more commercial than doujin. However, crowdfunding IS acceptable for general doujin, for the pure and simple reason that there are doujin works that rely on crowdfunding out there. It's only a bit of an issue in the Touhou doujin side cuz of ZUN's position

For 2) If you're paid to do work, then that's just that. There are for example circles and artists notorious for doing doujin who make stuff that some companies pay them for : for examples a variety of touhou circles that made made something for touhou gacha games. Considerations differs depending on whether you're an employee or a someone notorious in the doujinshi sphere that got commissioned to do work cuz of notoriety: it depends on the arrangements you have with the guy who paid you, but imo these'd be commercial works produced by someone notorious for their doujin works. For example, there was a small conversation on twitter where someone asked if the circle "Hatsunetsumiko's" was going to release the songs they made for cannonball, but they said no cuz the songs's copyright belong to the guys behind Touhou cannonball.

For 3) Depends if you're being subsidized by the government or just commissioned to put some work out there imo. For the former (as in, a circle subsidized by the government), I personally am not familiar with specific examples, but in such a case the circle can't possibly be bearing the full brunt of the financial risk like how circles are traditionally conceived to (doujin ideally being considered a hobbyist thing where profit is secondary), so it would be highly non-doujin-like. Although it would be different if there was a proper government doujin circle (for spreading awareness for example) : there was for example this certain japanese official who was a notorious otaku that was quite familiar with touhou (forgot the name, but we''ve seen him wear the touhou glass circle's Tenshi glasses) and even joined events as a circle to publish touhou related book (a Mokou book iirc) with awareness spreading message in it, but I can't confirm whether that was done with his own pocket money or the government's ; while for the latter, you're just doing work that you were paid to do BUT certainly still retain your status as a doujin circle : ZUN works as an example when he composed Wolves of Nanatsushi song for the benefit of Tabayama village officials (no details on their agreement, but likely not for free imo) : it's still a ZUN song that's part of a Touhou mini album.

4) Hmmm, probably already discussed previously. The means of advertisement is probably what's gotta be considered. With Touhou as an example, there's a difference between the spaces that are formally acknowledged by ZUN like touhou cure cafe and yomiuriland, which are spaces frequented by just anyone BUT made a specific touhou theme event + marketed that versus bars (for example) with owners familiar with touhou that do not have an official affiliation with ZUN yet make their own touhou things discreetely (as in, none of the "we're a touhou bar, guys ! Come here for touhou stuff" thingy).

5) I am not super familiar with PictSQUARE nor how things goes there, but even outside of touhou, it's pretty common for doujin creators to put their stuff for sale online. Doujin is a pretty old thing, and it has always traditionally been a physical thing first and foremost cuz there was neither adequate technology nor the proper infrastructure (plus legal recognition) to conveniently support doujin related activities : this means that physical meet up has always been the standard in the past. Imo, online space is just the natural progress for doujin (it's way more efficient than readying your booth, packing your bags, getting everything ready, waiting for people to buy your stuff or queueing the long lines, ...), and ought to be considered doujin too (not familiar with proper touhou related examples here)



I think overall it remains a confusing and yet-unsettled topic, but on one hand we can PROBABLY take in consideration 1) the hobby or profit motive, 2) the scale of the activity (large volume of money, means of production, big marketing and advertisment capabilities for example seem a bit too much for the regular doujin activity guy), 3) the status and notoriety of the involved parties (is such or such thing mainly backed by big company A or something ?). Just my opinion, could be wrong, and probably not comprehensive in all the possible aspects. Just about anyone can call themselves doujin and put their work out, it's probably worth it imo to take in consideration their notoriety and involvement in typically doujin spaces / activities (having their work for sale on doujin retail stores, participating in Comiket and the like, ...) on one hand AND take in consideration the scale of their activities.

[vanyk]

Hmmmm it's a bit risky to give an authoritative answer as I'm not a researcher nor an "insider" / proper expert on the matter.

Don't be afraid, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

In principle doujin are self published passion projects, and profit is not a priority, while profit is the most important thing in commercial activities (while I presonally believe the legal aspect ought to be considered as legally binding stuff seems a bit contrary to doujin's freedom of creation) ;

Yes

furthermore, the scale of operation (be it for production, distribution, probably even marketing and merchandising) is obviously gonna be extremely limited for the hobbyist side while far superior for the more commercial side.

Mostly yes, but here is a problem with professional circles, which sell a lot of products on doujin events and may attend them seleral times a month.

For 1) Considering the potentially massive financial scale that crowdfunding *could* reach and how it distinguisshes itself from the usual doujin's profit-second-hobby-first motive, it can be said to be more commercial than doujin. However, crowdfunding IS acceptable for general doujin, for the pure and simple reason that there are doujin works that rely on crowdfunding out there. It's only a bit of an issue in the Touhou doujin side cuz of ZUN's position

Mostly like this.

For 2) If you're paid to do work, then that's just that. There are for example circles and artists notorious for doing doujin who make stuff that some companies pay them for : for examples a variety of touhou circles that made made something for touhou gacha games. Considerations differs depending on whether you're an employee or a someone notorious in the doujinshi sphere that got commissioned to do work cuz of notoriety: it depends on the arrangements you have with the guy who paid you, but imo these'd be commercial works produced by someone notorious for their doujin works. For example, there was a small conversation on twitter where someone asked if the circle "Hatsunetsumiko's" was going to release the songs they made for cannonball, but they said no cuz the songs's copyright belong to the guys behind Touhou cannonball.

Somewhat like that, but I was talking about the cases when business invest into doujin.

For 3) Depends if you're being subsidized by the government or just commissioned to put some work out there imo. For the former (as in, a circle subsidized by the government), I personally am not familiar with specific examples, but in such a case the circle can't possibly be bearing the full brunt of the financial risk like how circles are traditionally conceived to (doujin ideally being considered a hobbyist thing where profit is secondary), so it would be highly non-doujin-like. Although it would be different if there was a proper government doujin circle (for spreading awareness for example) : there was for example this certain japanese official who was a notorious otaku that was quite familiar with touhou (forgot the name, but we''ve seen him wear the touhou glass circle's Tenshi glasses) and even joined events as a circle to publish touhou related book (a Mokou book iirc) with awareness spreading message in it, but I can't confirm whether that was done with his own pocket money or the government's ; while for the latter, you're just doing work that you were paid to do BUT certainly still retain your status as a doujin circle : ZUN works as an example when he composed Wolves of Nanatsushi song for the benefit of Tabayama village officials (no details on their agreement, but likely not for free imo) : it's still a ZUN song that's part of a Touhou mini album.

For the former there were government programs to help doujin with money during COVID. For latter, mostly like this.

4) Hmmm, probably already discussed previously. The means of advertisement is probably what's gotta be considered. With Touhou as an example, there's a difference between the spaces that are formally acknowledged by ZUN like touhou cure cafe and yomiuriland, which are spaces frequented by just anyone BUT made a specific touhou theme event + marketed that versus bars (for example) with owners familiar with touhou that do not have an official affiliation with ZUN yet make their own touhou things discreetely (as in, none of the "we're a touhou bar, guys ! Come here for touhou stuff" thingy).

Somewhat like that, but what to do with BAR Flandre? It is not like Touhou Project × Cure Maid Cafe, but at the same time it is vocal about being a place for Touhou fans. This thing is questionable (but nowadays most Japanese fans are okay with this)

5) I am not super familiar with PictSQUARE nor how things goes there, but even outside of touhou, it's pretty common for doujin creators to put their stuff for sale online. Doujin is a pretty old thing, and it has always traditionally been a physical thing first and foremost cuz there was neither adequate technology nor the proper infrastructure (plus legal recognition) to conveniently support doujin related activities : this means that physical meet up has always been the standard in the past. Imo, online space is just the natural progress for doujin (it's way more efficient than readying your booth, packing your bags, getting everything ready, waiting for people to buy your stuff or queueing the long lines, ...), and ought to be considered doujin too (not familiar with proper touhou related examples here)

I am sorry, but I think you didn't get it. I explained how pictSQUARE works in this article (https://shrinemaiden.com/index.php?topic=660.0) in the part about online events during COVID. Briefly, events there are like doujinshi sales events, but online. About the rest, yes, it is like that.

I think overall it remains a confusing and yet-unsettled topic, but on one hand we can PROBABLY take in consideration 1) the hobby or profit motive, 2) the scale of the activity (large volume of money, means of production, big marketing and advertisment capabilities for example seem a bit too much for the regular doujin activity guy), 3) the status and notoriety of the involved parties (is such or such thing mainly backed by big company A or something ?). Just my opinion, could be wrong, and probably not comprehensive in all the possible aspects. Just about anyone can call themselves doujin and put their work out, it's probably worth it imo to take in consideration their notoriety and involvement in typically doujin spaces / activities (having their work for sale on doujin retail stores, participating in Comiket and the like, ...) on one hand AND take in consideration the scale of their activities.

Well, that is how it is mostly viewed, but the borders are vague.

Thank you for your replies, it was quite interesting to see your opinion.

[vanyk]

A small, but interesting update.
Boundary Satellite Cafe (秘封珈琲店) was held at last Shizuoka Reitaisai. The fact of collaboration between Touhou cafe and Reitaisai is already interesting.
+ there was collaboration sake again.
But what is even more interesting is ZUN attending them.

Spoiler:

So yes, from now such activities may be considered in light gray (if not white) zone. So this may be considered as the end of this story.
By the way, there are plans for collaboration with Kouroumu.

[Branneg Xy]

 

A small, but interesting update.
Boundary Satellite Cafe (秘封珈琲店) was held at last Shizuoka Reitaisai. The fact of collaboration between Touhou cafe and Reitaisai is already interesting.
+ there was collaboration sake again.
But what is even more interesting is ZUN attending them.

Spoiler:

So yes, from now such activities may be considered in light gray (if not white) zone. So this may be considered as the end of this story.
By the way, there are plans for collaboration with Kouroumu.

So in the most recent end and developments is...  :fullpower:All that is and keeps "Well enough and Around enough the Light-Gray-to-White border area of More Doujin than Commercial" truly ends well... granted at the present and future time they are "Constant in Doujin and Equivalent Collarati eAspects Advantaged...

More (Non-Commercial/Not-Business)Doujin-like over Commercial/Business, more  Event-like over Establishment... more Balanced Collaboration between Official/demi-Official Events ars and Around; Event-like Establishments with Special Touhou Inventorie and/or Menus and /or Accessories (ref. foe example the kindly noted"Collaboration Sake"as a "To") with "Touhou-themed Sake beverages and Whole Labels".