Author Topic: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad  (Read 12285 times)

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Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« on: August 26, 2024, 06:36:39 AM »
So I have been getting into the series quite a bit and played through all 5 of the original PC-98 Gen games and have tried up to the 8th with IN but are the original 5 all that bad it feels wrong to say so just because of the hardware limitations there were so let me know your thoughts. Also Myon is awsome! :cirnotan:

BazaristOP

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2024, 01:13:39 PM »
I wouldn't say that they are bad, but outdates. you can't really compare some 30 year old games with the games that came out last year.

Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2024, 05:05:16 AM »
That makes sense considering the nature of development and advancements made being just that substantial but I guess that I should have phrased the question better and more as a why do the games receive a bad reputation in the first place.

williewillus

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2024, 07:12:47 AM »
They are jank and worse than the Windows games, but they aren't really that bad, per se.

Even more so if you consider the era in which they were developed and that they were basically student projects, LLS and MS are actually pretty amazing games.

Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2024, 07:20:36 PM »
They are jank and worse than the Windows games, but they aren't really that bad, per se.

Even more so if you consider the era in which they were developed and that they were basically student projects, LLS and MS are actually pretty amazing games.

Yeah that seems to align with my experiences with them and when comparing it to the problems that they have they are still just a stepping stone that needed to take place to get to where we are now.

Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2024, 08:37:00 PM »
The PC-98 games are fine. If you're looking to get into Touhou then they're probably not the best choice because they don't properly reflect the vibe of the franchise which is why most people don't start with them in the first place. And as mentioned before, they're kinda janky and theres also accessibility. You have to either get a pc-98 with a legal copy or find it online and emulate it which is much more inconvenient for people than just going on steam.

But theres still a lot of people that like the games and sometimes even consider them better than the newer ones. There's some charm in them especially if you're into pc-98 games. I've had some fun myself with LLS and PoDD.

Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2024, 04:05:23 AM »
I've been a PC-98 apologist for about as long as I've been in the fandom, but objectively speaking I think what you get out of the games depends on what you expect from them. HRtP is definitely the most opaque and inaccessible game in the series, but I legitimately do think it's fun to play now and again once you learn all its systems. And while I only ever 1cc'd PoDD on lunatic once, I personally think it's a superior game to PoFV. LLS has a very pleasing vibe that I still love to this day despite its occasional nightmare design with rank, and Mystic Square is more or less equal with the Windows games in my opinion. It's only SoEW that I would call a mediocre game, but even then it's a worthwhile experience to see where the series evolved from.

They certainly are not a recommended starting point for the series, but I think a playthrough of the series would be missing something without them. Plus, the music is still some of the series' best, at least in my opinion. Every era of music has lots to offer, but there's a uniqueness to PC-98's vibe that could only exist in the series' earliest years.

NovaDelta

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2024, 11:04:34 PM »
I actually started with the PC-98 games.

Lotus Land Story and Mystic Square are probably the most accessible of the bunch being the most similar to the Windows era games. The hitboxes are bigger and I think the player in general moves faster, but other than that, they're the most accessible. They've still got a bit of unfair jank here and there. Shinki's cheeto bullets being able to kill you if the cheeto bullets in Yuki/Mai's fight were still on screen when you defeated one is the only one I can name of the top of my head though.

The Story of Eastern Wonderland has a lot of jank and... oddities... There's your hitbox being gigantic in general but also it being able to be offset if you get hit, some really unfair bullet patterns, NO focus mode at all, etc. (plus no joystick support in NP2 which was rather annoying for me...)

Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream and Highly Responsive to Prayers are both non-standard Touhou games

PoDD was sorta the "lets copy things from other things and see what we can make in it" game. There's traced art, stolen and non-credited graphics code, copied entire gameplay mechanics, etc. However I actually find it pretty fun while I was playing it and it had my entrypoint into the series in it (Strawberry Crisis).

HRtP is an odd game that I can not for the life of me play correctly. Maybe with a bit of polish it could be a really fun game, but in the state it's in now, not really.

The music for all the games (even HRtP) is still great though, if you like chiptune ^^

One day, im hoping that I can learn how to create a sorta N64/GC style version of the games and polish over a few oddities along the way, but that requires a monumental amount of effort and skill that i dont have lol

Hanes04

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2024, 04:54:30 PM »
I also began with the PC-98 games. I already knew what to expect, since I knew Touhou games were bullet hells and I just wanted to have a more unique starting point than most. So when I started HRtP I was a bit shocked but only thought to push past it to get to the rest.

I think all of them have really good music, having select favorites from each game, but if you asked me about how I enjoy the games I would rank them as

LLS/MS > PoDD > HRtP/SoEW

Pretty obvious ranking to be honest, with the later games being the most refined, but there are minor details in between games that can be preferred over another. For example MS has very fun boss fights, like Alice's in Stage 3, but I find its characters less diverse and interesting to play than in LLS (particularly Marisa's lasers come to mind for me) and SoEW to an extent. I may as well go through my thoughts on each game shortly.

HRtP: Unique. I want to see another fangame recreate the "on the ground" element. Perhaps like Starfox 64 you can have flying stages and then walking stages. Bosses are fun, even if often they get cheap (looking at you YuugenMagan), however it has infinite continues so as of now it's my only Lunatic clear :P . Also Reimu should play more soccer, she can do those hype backflip kicks!

SoEW: Initially I favored it over HRtP but on replays I have found myself liking it less. You're so slow, mandating mobile type until you're very familiar with the game. A lot of boss patterns are pretty cheap and having to rapid fire the fire button so much is exhausting. That being said, the game nails the atmosphere of the later stages (I love Mima)! This game is also the most fun one to power-up in. Each power-up changes your bullet pattern in a way that kept my first-timer experience hooked (if you can manage to keep your levels up cheap attack after cheap attack), always wanting to see what new powers Reimu would get. For better or for worse, later games tend to stick to 1-2 bullets per character that they iterate on with each level-up.

PoDD: And initially I hated this one. Didn't get it. Until my friend showed me you're supposed to use the explosion of enemies to chain up combos. Then it became really fun! Sending boss fights over is fun, especially when you cancel the enemy's, and chaining summons is really fun in the later stages. Yumemi's design is really cool. The game's bots also tweak like crazy, typical videogame AI being overpowered...

LLS: Great game, though very easy. It's by far the most accessible of the PC-98 games in my opinion due to its introduction of many QoL features SoEW sorely needed (like enemy HP bars... which technically HRtP and PoDD had). I don't have too much to say on it except that it's a very fun experience, bosses also began getting more interesting here with a proto-spellcard system, but MS did it better.

MS: Great game, with a more standard difficulty for most Touhou games, although the lack of focus does make it trickier. Bosses in this one are really fun with great patterns and all. Overall I'd say this game loses out on the stage design aspect of it which LLS exceeds in, but it trumps out LLS in boss design. One other notable "flaw" for me in this game is that characters feel really boring. Leveling up just makes you shoot more of the same bullet. LLS does power progression much better (and I already mentioned how SoEW has it be so varied and unique).

SeroVich

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2024, 05:48:15 AM »
Just as what others said, they aren't bad games, but they aged horribly; Especially Touhou HRtP. That game is sooooo brutal and needlessly cruel, but it can feel smooth once you know what to do.

PoDD: And initially I hated this one. Didn't get it. Until my friend showed me you're supposed to use the explosion of enemies to chain up combos. Then it became really fun! Sending boss fights over is fun, especially when you cancel the enemy's, and chaining summons is really fun in the later stages. Yumemi's design is really cool. The game's bots also tweak like crazy, typical videogame AI being overpowered...

PoDD is still my least favorite game, because of the AI of the bosses being wack and the bullets being small, plus, being bad with Phantasmagoria-like games.... :meiling:

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2024, 12:58:42 PM »
I actually started with the PC-98 games.

Lotus Land Story and Mystic Square are probably the most accessible of the bunch being the most similar to the Windows era games. The hitboxes are bigger and I think the player in general moves faster, but other than that, they're the most accessible. They've still got a bit of unfair jank here and there. Shinki's cheeto bullets being able to kill you if the cheeto bullets in Yuki/Mai's fight were still on screen when you defeated one is the only one I can name of the top of my head though.

The Story of Eastern Wonderland has a lot of jank and... oddities... There's your hitbox being gigantic in general but also it being able to be offset if you get hit, some really unfair bullet patterns, NO focus mode at all, etc. (plus no joystick support in NP2 which was rather annoying for me...)

Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream and Highly Responsive to Prayers are both non-standard Touhou games

PoDD was sorta the "lets copy things from other things and see what we can make in it" game. There's traced art, stolen and non-credited graphics code, copied entire gameplay mechanics, etc. However I actually find it pretty fun while I was playing it and it had my entrypoint into the series in it (Strawberry Crisis).

HRtP is an odd game that I can not for the life of me play correctly. Maybe with a bit of polish it could be a really fun game, but in the state it's in now, not really.

The music for all the games (even HRtP) is still great though, if you like chiptune ^^

One day, im hoping that I can learn how to create a sorta N64/GC style version of the games and polish over a few oddities along the way, but that requires a monumental amount of effort and skill that i dont have lol
"Remakes ( porting and adaptions )"  ,along with trailers on the same page ,all 5 single pc-98 Touhou games under a single project and author,may be found ready and compatible for both  Windows,Linux and Mac OS X on " itch.io (Touhou pc-98-nes) " .
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Hanes04

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2024, 07:43:35 PM »
Just as what others said, they aren't bad games, but they aged horribly; Especially Touhou HRtP. That game is sooooo brutal and needlessly cruel, but it can feel smooth once you know what to do.

PoDD is still my least favorite game, because of the AI of the bosses being wack and the bullets being small, plus, being bad with Phantasmagoria-like games.... :meiling:

HRtP's biggest issue to me is some of the bs boss attacks and the backgrounds sometimes being ugly to look at. I think once you get past that though the patterns are actually pretty fun, as well as dodging some of the tiles in the intermediate stages on like Lunatic for example.

Yeah I don't like the Phantasmagoria style of game either, but at least I enjoyed PoDD for what it was... most bosses will kill themselves at some point, and if you get lucky they just decide to get melted instantly.

williewillus

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2024, 08:08:06 PM »
"Remakes ( porting and adaptions )"  ,along with trailers on the same page ,all 5 single pc-98 Touhou games under a single project and author,may be found ready and compatible for both  Windows,Linux and Mac OS X on " itch.io (Touhou pc-98-nes) " .

These aren't entirely the same as the originals though as they're NES remakess. On the other hand, the ReC98 project is working on full legit decompilation of the pc98 games (and Seihou), which will eventually be recompilable to newer target platforms.

Hanes04

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2024, 09:03:56 PM »
I mean I just got them off Moriya Shrine to be honest.

Follow the emulator guide (a specific keyboard combo made me need to use an on-screen keyboard, that was the only difficult thing), and set it up, then torrent the Touhou 1-5 files provided on Moriya Shrine also, and voila.

<link removed>
« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 09:59:58 AM by Karisa »

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2024, 11:11:18 AM »
I wouldn't say they're bad, the genre was quite new outside of the arcade environment. I'd suggest comparing them to other indie or small studio bullet games of the time.

Just as what others said, they aren't bad games, but they aged horribly; Especially Touhou HRtP. That game is sooooo brutal and needlessly cruel, but it can feel smooth once you know what to do.
Honestly you could say the same about most games that old as there wasn't as big an emphasis on 'user experience' back then. The skill floors are usually higher than what is expected today, and many levels or attacks are considered unfair because of how little warning or foreshadowing is given to the player. Luckily with older games being shorter you don't lose that much progress and can reach that level again in a few minutes.

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 02:44:10 AM »
I've played 3 of the PC-98 games. And from the perspective of how old they are and what platform they are were running on originally....I do think they hold up decently well- although I feel that Highly Responsive to Prayers shows its age more than the rest, as expected of the first game for the entire series.

People who are not used to playing such older aged games may more likely view them as 'bad', thus some may not even give the games a chance sadly. But they are worth dipping into at least once, in my opinion. Some of the charm literally is in it's age and seeing what elements were carried over into the Windows era games.

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Re: Are The PC-98 Games Really That Bad
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:15:08 AM »
I find them to be quite clunky but not really that bad. My favorite two games from the PC98 era are LLS and HRtP, I dread playing PoDD tho. They have great music and to be fair they are quite fun. :meiling: