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Purity in Touhou.
« on: April 13, 2024, 06:31:09 AM »
Recently, I've been thinking a lot about how exactly purity works in Touhou. And to clarify, I'm not refering to Junko's version of purity which is explicitly different, I'm referring to the Shinto/Buddhist concept of purity that is applied by the lunarians.What defines a being as being "pure"? Lunarians absolve themselves from sin and "impure" thoughts. Apparently drinking the Hourai Elixir makes one impure because you are tainted with the desire for the removal of death but Mokou mentions says in IN:  "To be devoid of death is to be devoid of life.
Without the unnecessary states of life and death,
I'm about as close as you can get to a pure human." Ghosts are also pure and so are celestials as well so should hermits have to purify themselves in order to ascend to Heaven or do their souls get purified once they get ascended? Are divine spirits and yaoyorozu no kami also pure since they're also spirits. Also why does being in a pure land make you not age? I think that there's a through line in this that would make everything else fall in place but I don't really understand it.

What I'm basically asking is: What is a concise definition for purity in Touhou.

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2024, 01:12:21 PM »

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Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2024, 01:46:15 PM »
Recently, I've been thinking a lot about how exactly purity works in Touhou. And to clarify, I'm not refering to Junko's version of purity which is explicitly different, I'm referring to the Shinto/Buddhist concept of purity that is applied by the lunarians.What defines a being as being "pure"? Lunarians absolve themselves from sin and "impure" thoughts. Apparently drinking the Hourai Elixir makes one impure because you are tainted with the desire for the removal of death but Mokou mentions says in IN:  "To be devoid of death is to be devoid of life.
Without the unnecessary states of life and death,
I'm about as close as you can get to a pure human." Ghosts are also pure and so are celestials as well so should hermits have to purify themselves in order to ascend to Heaven or do their souls get purified once they get ascended? Are divine spirits and yaoyorozu no kami also pure since they're also spirits. Also why does being in a pure land make you not age? I think that there's a through line in this that would make everything else fall in place but I don't really understand it.

What I'm basically asking is: What is a concise definition for purity in Touhou.

To such and further seeking out of points and insights, there is actually a fairly brief, but precise and helpful article about "Touhou's Impurity (and, by parallel associations,  Purity ) "on https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Impurity.

Listed and confirmed "Pure Lands" are:
"Known Pure Lands
Eientei (formerly)("artificially Purified")
Heaven
Higan
The Moon ("Artificially Purified)
The Netherworld. "

P. S. Senkai("Hermit World(s) ") are not such but inspired and preparations for  "ascending to the Pure Land(Environment), which generally is o Heaven/Bhava-Agra/Celestial-hood".

From such with additional research, examples, hints, major requirements of "Purity in Touhou" are hinted at to be: "Pure Land(Forever Unchanging and Timeless,  Lifeless and Deathless Enviroments) "; Pure Lands(Environment) Denizens willing living and remaining as much as possible within Pure Lands("Environments) "; "Upkeeping of such Purity in the Pure Lands(" Environments)by allowing in as Little Impurity as possible and Purifying Impurities before becoming Tainted/Impure", differences between "Natural Pure Lands(Heaven and Celestials) such Upkeep of Purity In/Impurity Out is majorly on a personal level(Celestials repelling or escaping against Shinigami Reapers, Kishins, Chief Kishins)"and  "Artificial Pure Lands(Moon, Lunar Capital) where it is majorly about(Lunarians and Moon Rabbits) the Purity of the Land("Enviroments)itself needing to be Environmentally Upkept ".




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Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2024, 03:25:15 PM »
Purity is slightly difficult to define here due to slight conflation of two meanings of the word.
As Cyberangel pointed out, Purity is directly related to the concept of Kegare. Despite what one might think, it's not directly analogous to Sin, because Impurity does not necessarily pop-up due to conscious actions and sometimes it's due to natural events. Death is one example, people don't usually choose to die, and others don't usually choose to be next to a dead person either.

Another hint of the nature of Purity is in Buddhism. One of the natures that can cause Impurity is Yearning. Clinging onto the past or feeling discontent with your place.
Ghosts are also pure and so are celestials as well so should hermits have to purify themselves in order to ascend to Heaven or do their souls get purified once they get ascended? Are divine spirits and yaoyorozu no kami also pure since they're also spirits. Also why does being in a pure land make you not age? I think that there's a through line in this that would make everything else fall in place but I don't really understand it.

This is why Ghosts aren't Pure, they exist purely because they have a Fetter not letting them pass on. Hermits should have to purify themselves to ascend to Heaven (Or Nirvana, if you want to use that word), Buddhists specifically seek to free themselves of all worldly desires (Yearning) to be Pure. This usually leads to a long life without short-cuts.
I say Should because, as we all know, The Nai Clan became Divine Spirits after death and their servants (including Tenshi which makes her the techincal third Miko) ascended to Heaven for their servitude during life. Is this nepotism? Yes. So it's entirely possible to gain Purity and access to Heaven by serving the Heavens and gaining their favour.
This also answers the question of "Are Divine Spirits and The Yaoyorozu no Kami Pure", yes they are. They gain such a state after ascending to Godhood. These aren't to be mistaken for the many Spirits we see in Ten Desires, as those are merely Greedy/Vulgar Spirits filled with Desires for Godhood.

The reason you don't age in a Pure Land is because Entropy, Decay, and Death is a source of impurity, and if you live in the Atmosphere of a Pure Land long enough you start to become more Pure and therefore more resistant to Death and Decay. The "Entropy" side is also what causes objects to not change their state much in a Pure Land. You can't really get rid of the Impurity in this way if you still live. The Lunarians still age, just very slowly, because they still have a small amount of impurity in them. The Five Signs of The Dying Deva are also relevant since Constant Uneasiness (Yearning), and Withering of the Flower Crown (Death and Decay) are obvious signs of Impurity.

Apparently drinking the Hourai Elixir makes one impure because you are tainted with the desire for the removal of death but Mokou mentions says in IN:  "To be devoid of death is to be devoid of life.
Without the unnecessary states of life and death,
I'm about as close as you can get to a pure human."

This is a bit tricky but the reason the Hourai Elixir makes you Impure is because drinking it forever marks you with the Desire (Yearning) to avoid death, therefore you are marked by death with the desire for the abscence of it.
Mokou is slightly correct when she says that she's about as close as you can get to a Pure Human. When you gain enough Purity you eventually stop counting as "Human" by turning into a Celestial, or Divine Spirit, or Hermit, etc. Mokou, curiously, still counts as a Human despite being Immortal. She doesn't age or truly die but she is rife with impurity, she has all of the hallmarks of Purity (unaging, deathlessness) but not the internal nature, she's inherently Impure from drinking the Elixir and, ironically, searching for a permanent way to die showing yearning for death, a source of impurity.

So to round this all up.
A "Pure" being would be someone who hasn't been exposed to Kegare (Impurity), has freed themselves from worldly desires (Yearning), and lives in a Pure Land (Heaven, The Netherworld, The Moon, a Senkai if they're a Hermit). They're Amortal in the sense that Life and Death doesn't matter to their existence, they just are, and therefore they don't age or even fall ill. By this definition every Celestial not named Tenshi Hinanawi is "Pure".
"Purity" is a state absent of Life, Death, Yearning, and Decay. Or rather, the abscence of "Kegare".

This is an unexpectedly complicated topic rooted in Theology, Mythology, and even weird Semantics. But I hope that this answer is understandable and satisfactory.
Now you know why In Defiance of Transience exists. I had to do some research myself for that.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 03:37:30 PM by WitheringFlowerCrown »

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2024, 06:32:49 PM »
This is why Ghosts aren't Pure, they exist purely because they have a Fetter not letting them pass on. Hermits should have to purify themselves to ascend to Heaven (Or Nirvana, if you want to use that word), Buddhists specifically seek to free themselves of all worldly desires (Yearning) to be Pure. This usually leads to a long life without short-cuts.
I say Should because, as we all know, The Nai Clan became Divine Spirits after death and their servants (including Tenshi which makes her the techincal third Miko) ascended to Heaven for their servitude during life. Is this nepotism? Yes. So it's entirely possible to gain Purity and access to Heaven by serving the Heavens and gaining their favour.
I have a question regarding this, if ghosts aren't pure then why were Yuyuko and Youmu capable of sneaking into the Lunar Capital? Since in Cage in Lunatic Runagate it says: "Ghosts inherently reside in a Pure Land. This meant they have not been tainted by life nor death, and as a result they were able to act without leaving behind any traces of their presence". This would mean that Youmu and Yuyuko are pure beings because the udonge trees on the moon didn't bloom in their presence. Considering their personalities, I wouldn't really call them pure so can an impure being become pure by simply living in a pure land? Does this mean that Suika could theoretically become pure if she lives in the portion of Heaven that she has long enough?

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2024, 07:53:28 PM »
I have a question regarding this, if ghosts aren't pure then why were Yuyuko and Youmu capable of sneaking into the Lunar Capital? Since in Cage in Lunatic Runagate it says: "Ghosts inherently reside in a Pure Land. This meant they have not been tainted by life nor death, and as a result they were able to act without leaving behind any traces of their presence". This would mean that Youmu and Yuyuko are pure beings because the udonge trees on the moon didn't bloom in their presence. Considering their personalities, I wouldn't really call them pure so can an impure being become pure by simply living in a pure land? Does this mean that Suika could theoretically become pure if she lives in the portion of Heaven that she has long enough?

Yes to both of your questions. It's possible for them to become Pure if they live in a Pure Land long enough, or at least gain the same level of Purity as the Lunarians wherein they only have a miniscule amount of Impurity. The waiting areas for Ghosts and Phantoms in general are usually Pure Lands like Higan or the Netherworld curiously.
Suika is a bit tricky. If she decided to hole up in the portion of Heaven she has for a prolonged period of time, sure. Whether she will? That's a different question.
This is probably the reason Lunarians and Celestials rarely come down to Earth. The opposite is also true.
One weird thing is that according to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Phantasmagoria of Flower View, Youmu's Hakurouken can cause Phantoms to go to Nirvana when used on them by destroying their regrets and doubts.

"Quotes from PoFV and PMiSS":
"The Netherworld is a place for souls to stay temporarily when they can't reach nirvana.
Souls which can't achieve this peaceful death are those who have left behind regrets or doubts.
The Yama decides what world a soul goes in its afterlife, according to the weight of its sins.
Whether it goes to hell, heaven, or the Netherworld...
Youmu would abruptly cut off all of that from souls. That is, she'd bring them to nirvana.
In other words, if a ghost were to be cut down by her sword, before it gets judged by the Yama, then even one that embraces sin could end up in heaven.
That is why she was told that it'd be better to not cut down the phantoms still in world of living."
PoFV, Youmu's Ending

"The other sword, Hakurouken, is the ancestral sword of the Konpaku family, and it's said to have the power to dispel the confusion of those it cuts.
That is, using it on phantoms will send them to nirvana, and using it on humans will cause them discomfort and a bit of pain.
The exact details of its function are unclear, but it can only be handled by the Konpaku family."
PMiSS, Youmu's Article
« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 07:59:24 PM by WitheringFlowerCrown »

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2024, 08:05:22 PM »
Yes to both of your questions. It's possible for them to become Pure if they live in a Pure Land long enough, or at least gain the same level of Purity as the Lunarians wherein they only have a miniscule amount of Impurity. The waiting areas for Ghosts and Phantoms in general are usually Pure Lands like Higan or the Netherworld curiously.
Suika is a bit tricky. If she decided to hole up in the portion of Heaven she has for a prolonged period of time, sure. Whether she will? That's a different question.
This is probably the reason Lunarians and Celestials rarely come down to Earth. The opposite is also true.
One weird thing is that according to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Phantasmagoria of Flower View, Youmu's Hakurouken can cause Phantoms to go to Nirvana when used on them by destroying their regrets and doubts.
I guess this would bring into question why Lunarians are so up-tight about "acting pure", since Kaguya who is an impure being was able to create a pure land herself and theoretically could reach the same amount of purity as a Lunarian even though she drank the Hourai Elixir.

Maybe they're just really arrogant  :cirnotan:

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2024, 08:12:43 PM »
Maybe they're just really arrogant  :cirnotan:

And now you've figured out the secret to the Lunarians.
"Acting Impure" certainly doesn't help in their case though. Since their Land is Pure by a lack of exposure to Kegare rather than naturally being made like that. In other words, it's Artifical, like a sanitised swimming pool. Someone commiting something like Murder or even harbouring feelings of absolute revenge or yearning for lack of death would be like peeing in that swimming pool.
To use a better analogy: If you, an Impure human, walked into the Lunar Capital, then it would be like a person who's never taken a shower tracking mud into your house.
Now if only they didn't kick out their Pure Land generator...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 08:19:30 PM by WitheringFlowerCrown »

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2024, 09:00:28 PM »
Interesting note, Toyosatowhatever did tell Youmu in TH13 that she seems to lack desires related to life and death, so yeah, she's unexpectedly "pure" in that sense.

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2024, 10:26:17 PM »
A side note: Be wary of trusting the wiki at face value on this topic. I've done a fair amount of research on the topic recently for a story, and a lot of the wiki page's statements on impurity and pure lands beyond the basics of its relation to death are either incorrect, based on outdated translations, or pure conjecture. In reality, I believe the only two places explicitly identified as pure lands are the moon and the netherworld (I mean, the idea of a place directly adjacent to hell and frequented by shinigami like Higan being a pure land is pretty suspect), and Youmu and Yuyuko are stated as having "almost no impurity" rather than none at all. In addition, whoever made the page conflated Kaguya's manipulation of eternity with elements of a pure land, when they're similar but quite distinct subjects (Eientei was a pure land because her power of eternity halted the flow of impurity from entering Eientei, not because eternity and purity are the same thing).

For the best source of canonical information on impurity, I recommend reading the first few chapters of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, which most of the page's theories are based on. Trying to gain a complete understanding of any topic in Touhou is a fool's errand due to how open to interpretation much of the information is, but you can at least build a solid theory of it from reading the official works and coming to your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2024, 11:05:45 PM by nintendonut888 »

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2024, 11:01:23 PM »
Yes, I'm quite wary of Secondary Sources as well. Which is why I try to play the games and read the external media for a brush up on all things. I already knew all of the dubious things you said and try to make a mental note of them.
Making a working theory is the best we can do, as you said. My working theory on Purity is what I shared.

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2024, 11:52:03 PM »
A side note: Be wary of trusting the wiki at face value on this topic. I've done a fair amount of research on the topic recently for a story, and a lot of the wiki page's statements on impurity and pure lands beyond the basics of its relation to death are either incorrect, based on outdated translations, or pure conjecture. In reality, I believe the only two places explicitly identified as pure lands are the moon and the netherworld (I mean, the idea of a place directly adjacent to hell and frequented by shinigami like Higan being a pure land is pretty suspect), and Youmu and Yuyuko are stated as having "almost no impurity" rather than none at all. In addition, whoever made the page conflated Kaguya's manipulation of eternity with elements of a pure land, when they're similar but quite distinct subjects (Eientei was a pure land because her power of eternity halted the flow of impurity from entering Eientei, not because eternity and purity are the same thing).

For the best source of canonical information on impurity, I recommend reading the first few chapters of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, which most of the page's theories are based on. Trying to gain a complete understanding of any topic in Touhou is a fool's errand due to how open to interpretation much of the information is, but you can at least build a solid theory of it from reading the official works and coming to your own conclusions.
That's mainly why I came here. The wiki page on Impurity is rather vague and is really short so I asked here to get clarification.

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Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2024, 03:27:52 AM »
Another hint of the nature of Purity is in Buddhism. One of the natures that can cause Impurity is Yearning. Clinging onto the past or feeling discontent with your place.

This is the main thing I thought of too when reading the OP, it's the sort of clinging to worldly desires and acting upon those desires that invites impurity.

A side note: Be wary of trusting the wiki at face value on this topic. I've done a fair amount of research on the topic recently for a story, and a lot of the wiki page's statements on impurity and pure lands beyond the basics of its relation to death are either incorrect, based on outdated translations, or pure conjecture.

Yeah, unfortunately the wiki is filled with 14-year-old conjectures from 2010. The Chinese wiki fares slightly better in that more stuff is translated and has sources, but still not too great.

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2024, 04:10:36 AM »
I'm not sure traditional Buddhist concepts apply to Touhou's conception of impurity, actually. Whenever impurity has been mentioned, it's always been in relation to life and death. As explained by Toyohime, the Earth itself was once a pure land, but the cycle of life and death in nature slowly corrupted it until it could no longer be called such. The most straightforward definition was given in CoLR chapter 6:

Quote
The "impurity" that the Lunar Capital detested was life and death. They believed Earth was a world where simply living invites death. There were even those who called Earth a land of impurity, where every being had to compete to live, and the Moon a "pure land" where that filth had been purified. A world without life or death is the most beautiful thing, but it's still different from a world which had nothing in it. A world where one did not need to take from others to live and could live by what they had made themselves. That was said to be an ideal world.

But again, the particulars are largely up to personal interpretation, so I'm not saying that idea is right or wrong.

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Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2024, 12:24:30 AM »
I also think that purity (and impurity too) is complicated in Touhou cuz these words are not used in a very restricted manner. So I'm gonna try to help by focusing only on the Lunarians only here :

Whenever impurity has been mentioned, it's always been in relation to life and death.
There is actually also another suspicious brand(?) of impurity that the Lunarians are clearly not afraid of and is probably less related to life and death but probably more of it being impure as it's from earth : to illustrate, we have the Lunarian space probe from LoLK, which was virtually invisible to Youkai (who couldn't do anything about it) because the Youkai were too impure ; and we have the fact that Celestial flesh (actual pure beings) is toxic to Youkai and even have an uncomfortable presence to them ; and the fact that the Ultramarine orb's purification effect would instagib native gods such as Suwako ; and small speculation here but the possibility that the Youkai's defeat in the Lunar War, aside from technological inferiority, could have anything to do with their impurity imo.

1/All in all, the main takeaway here is the fact that basically impure beings are unarguably inferior to pure ones, and anything from the earth's make is impure (They even have shorter lifespans, inferior technology, probably dumber and stinkier too)

As for the moonies, since we've already seen the Watatsukis and EVEN Sagume personally go down to Earth despite it being rife with impurity (eww), I personally think the average unnamed Lunarian's distaste for impurity is more rooted in arrogance and ideology rather than in-universe lore understanding of it being bad for their health (not everyone should be on Sagume and Eirin's intellectual level anyway) : I think that aside from what WhitheringFlowerCrown said about Kaguya taking the hourai elixir, there shouldn't be a practical reason to ban Kaguya : it disconnects her from life and death anyway, so why ban her for impurity related pragmatic reasons ? It's gotta be ideological : she's basically failed the Lunarian ideological purity test by thinking like one of the stinky impure earthling, as in, taking the elixir cuz of mortality while she shouldn't even be afraid of that as a Lunarian.

2/So basically the average Lunarian's attitude towards impurity is that of a complete ideological rejection

As for the good old kegare, or the impurity of life and death that the Lunarians just can't handle, while I agree that it's probably still worth it to take Shinto Cosmology (rather than Buddhism) into consideration since Touhou lore uses traditional Japanese folklore, beliefs and religion as a backdrop anyway, I think it can be safely ignored since most of its relevant concepts are not really in use in Touhou : as far as this series goes, I think it's alright to simplify it as impurity from life and death.

But at any rate, when it comes to the difference between the moon and the earth in touhou, whenever we have something moon and purity related, it's generally about things staying the same : to illustrate, we have the moon's udonge tree for which blooming will serve to signal impurity so it's safe to assume they generally don't do that (cuz no impurity on the moon) ; and we also had Eientei be pretty much unchanging too before and during IN ; while in LoLK, the Entire capital was frozen in time to prevent impurity. Meanwhile, on Earth / Gensokyo we have Yukari's attitude in one of Marisa's LoLK ending where she's like "Gensokyo can change" (plus another FS chapter to that effect) ; and I also vaguely remember a Mamizou - Kokoro conversation where Mamizou tells Kokoro something that basically "life is about change" (although I can't find that conversation in the wiki ?? Srsly I remember something like that) ; and finally there's also Reisen, who changed from being a moon rabbit to a earth one during her stay in our stinky world : Thematically speaking, in Touhou the moon is always about eternity and the unchanging, while the earth is about change and growth.

3/Considering all that, I'd say that a pretty correct babyfied oversimplification is to say that impurity in touhou (the variety that Lunarians can't handle) is what allows change that lead you closer to death.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 12:47:22 AM by Suspicious person »

Re: Purity in Touhou.
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2024, 10:29:32 AM »
I think the reason the Lunarians were so averse to the impurity the fairies in LoLK produced was a matter of degree, not difference. Junko's power brought out the fairies' latent life energy/impurity to its greatest extent, to the point where the Moon gained a breathable atmosphere. Because the Lunarians are hypocrites, they're okay with going to the earth for a night or dealing with the occasional human or youkai, but this level of impurity was presumably a different story, to say nothing of what Junko herself could do if they fought her directly. Or it could be the amount of exposure would be beyond what they could tolerate if they had to wage a proper war.

Also, I would argue that anything we know about celestials cannot be reliably applied to theories on Lunarians or purity, as we don't know if they're pure beings or even if heaven is classified as a pure land. ZUN remarked in his SoPM interview that Lunarians are "closer to hermits or celestials than humans," which taken another way means that all three are different types of beings with their own distinctions.

We know remarkably little about heaven or its residents compared to hell or the moon, but it is known that celestialhood is something you're "promoted" into, and that enlightenment itself does not a celestial make. Long-time hermits like Seiga can be passed over for celestialhood, and untrained humans like Tenshi can be made into celestials if they're chosen for whatever reason, and the physical difference is large enough that they go from delicacies to poison for youkai. The process that makes one a celestial is completely unknown, but even if heaven were a pure land, there's no reason to think it is the same method the Lunarians took. My personal theory is that hermits and celestials pursue a different path towards agelessness than the Lunarians do, as neither care about impurity or spending time on Earth - just averting death itself. But there's such little information on them that I'd be cautious about making any assumptions one way or the other.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 07:35:31 PM by nintendonut888 »