Author Topic: moriyashrine.org got DMCA  (Read 2719 times)

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Re: moriyashrine.org got DMCA
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2022, 03:35:32 PM »
Mind you it has almost become a tradition that most Touhou players "try it, before they buy it" since steam releases always come second after the disk releases, people want to be the first to post strats, clears, flex about their abilities and such, do you want to go against them too? Again, you can fight it, more power to you, but seeing as we're talking about dedicated players who were playing these games for longer than most people on this forum lived (probably me included), it's one futile battle that will in the end only hurt the consumers and fans.

Do you really want to report every single video clearly made by western player before the next game's steam version releases? Have fun, it's the "right thing to do", after all.
Regardless, since when did playing every game in a series become a dire, pressing need anyway? Is it seriously going to harm or hinder your perception of Reimu because you never got to feel how she controls in HRtP?
There are people who liked PC-98 too games you know. It's a small percentage, they're usually retro players, but I know them. By shutting down every easy access to these games you're still not making it easier for other people to get into this series.
If ZUN hasn't even hired a translator to make an official English version, what makes you think he would go through the effort of porting PC-98 games to modern systems, especially when that effort could go towards making a brand-new game?
Nothing made me think that, you're projecting now.
In fact, you just helped my argument: ZUN doesn't even bother hiring translator for official versions, ergo things like circulating PC98 games and print works for translations should be okay.

Regarding the other points - don't want to go into details since it's somewhat unclear, but you're exclusively referring to PC-98 titles, right?
No.
However, I'd like to ask you to reread my post
God, no. Not again.
Look, maybe to you it's normal to call other people "dirtbags" and saying it's "a good riddance" or "it took long enough" to remove their stuff despite it being fine for years, while also saying hoping Tasofro and ZUN should go after redistributed prints, because it's justified by the fact they've reposted other people's work for free. But once again, most of the translations of prints/manga (if that's what you meant by print works) is taken from either pirated or redistributed copy, meaning most western fans won't be able to experience it without pirating it or without something you deem as irredeemable. Similarly, we wouldn't have most of the translations, mods or works made from technically pirated copies of either games or anything else Touhou is famous for.

In my opinion despite writing walls of text, most of your comments and posts about this matter lack depth or legitimate arguments and there could twice less of them without anything of value being lost. Personally I feel your posts on this matter either feel passive agressive (at least only to me it sounds like that with 'dirtbag' insults, but since N-Forza and probably others don't see it, then okay, don't mind that point), are contradictory (I've used PC98 games as a point for archivization seeing as they were also taken down, despite not being really available. Same could be said for print work translations since like N-Forza said, they will never be officially translated) or are despite the length, they don't add anything of substance to the discussion or helping it. They just feel like ZUN's bootlicker buzzwords to me, thus why I made the previous comment.

I will give you that at least your last post is totally different from the previous ones in anything but length (but hey, I also like writing too much as you might've noticed). However I'm not sure it's because you've doubled down on your points or because you're just stubbornly not getting my point and saying it's me who needs to reread your posts, because there's no way you can be wrong.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 04:25:09 PM by Popcioslav »

Petitssk

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Re: moriyashrine.org got DMCA
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2022, 05:43:31 PM »
Mind you it has almost become a tradition that most Touhou players "try it, before they buy it" since steam releases always come second after the disk releases, people want to be the first to post strats, clears, flex about their abilities and such, do you want to go against them too? Again, you can fight it, more power to you, but seeing as we're talking about dedicated players who were playing these games for longer than most people on this forum lived (probably me included), it's one futile battle that will in the end only hurt the consumers and fans.

Do you really want to report every single video clearly made by western player before the next game's steam version releases? Have fun, it's the "right thing to do", after all.

Just quoting this one separately - you do realize there are imports, right? That's part of the reason this forum's approach to don't ask, don't tell has worked so well.

Quote
There are people who liked PC-98 too games you know. It's a small percentage, they're usually retro players, but I know them. By shutting down every easy access to these games you're still not making it easier for other people to get into this series. Nothing made me think that, you're projecting now.
In fact, you just helped my argument: ZUN doesn't even bother hiring translator for official versions, ergo things like circulating PC98 games and print works for translations should be okay.
No.God, no. Not again.
Look, maybe to you it's normal to call other people "dirtbags" and saying it's "a good riddance" or "it took long enough" to remove their stuff despite it being fine for years, while also saying hoping Tasofro and ZUN should go after redistributed prints, because it's justified by the fact they've reposted other people's work for free. But once again, most of the translations of prints/manga (if that's what you meant by print works) is taken from either pirated or redistributed copy, meaning most western fans won't be able to experience it without pirating it or without something you deem as irredeemable. Similarly, we wouldn't have most of the translations, mods or works made from technically pirated copies of either games or anything else Touhou is famous for.

In my opinion despite writing walls of text, most of your comments and posts about this matter lack depth or legitimate arguments and there could twice less of them without anything of value being lost. Personally I feel your posts on this matter either feel passive agressive (at least only to me it sounds like that with 'dirtbag' insults, but since N-Forza and probably others don't see it, then okay, don't mind that point), are contradictory (I've used PC98 games as a point for archivization seeing as they were also taken down, despite not being really available. Same could be said for print work translations since like N-Forza said, they will never be officially translated) or are despite the length, they don't add anything of substance to the discussion or helping it. They just feel like ZUN's bootlicker buzzwords to me, thus why I made the previous comment.

I will give you that at least your last post is totally different from the previous ones in anything but length (but hey, I also like writing too much as you might've noticed). However I'm not sure it's because you've doubled down on your points or because you're just stubbornly not getting my point and saying it's me who needs to reread your posts, because there's no way you can be wrong.

As for the rest - yes, I stand by calling people who look for loopholes around DMCAs dirtbags. Likewise, I don't like the thought of anyone who goes against a content creator's explicit wishes going around calling themselves fans.

That, however, does not mean I do not realize there is more depth to piracy than just people wanting stuff for free - factors such as lack of translations (or income even) play a role, absolutely, but the bottom line is, again, why you perceive your need to have free access to the games and other media more important than the content creator's right to not have his works distributed for free, which does seem to be the case since you pointed out you weren't referring only to PC-98 titles. Perhaps he should have cracked down on it earlier, but is it really required for someone to openly state that (in addition to the remarks on reproduction etc. on every game, but I guess those don't count?)? And, let's be honest - would the western community have cared? Apparently not, since those were there already.

As I said, I really don't like many of the stunts some content creators pull, and that goes thrice for Japanese ones. Store-specific extras, event-only releases, console-exclusive characters, bad ethics; you bet I am absolutely not sure if I like them. But at the end of the day, that means I either like their content enough to get it anyway or I simply do not get the games/media, simple as that. And the same goes for print releases released in languages I don't understand. Regarding Touhou, I guess I may be fortunate enough to not require translations, but for other media, that means I don't read them, end of story.

With Touhou, the problem is that large parts of the western fanbase basically sustain themselves on piracy - without it, there's no fandom there (emphasis on the location), and due to that, it is deeply engrained. In consideration of that, I admit that some backlash is to be expected and yeah, it would be great if ZUN came out of the woodworks saying that he's recognizing western demand and releasing more works in English etc., but that is up to him. The fanbase is in no position to make demands and in no position to complain if he uses his rights as content creator to actively go after sites providing copies of his works without authorization to do so.

If you want to imply he does not have that right, as your first post kind of implies, feel free to just say so since we could at least agree to disagree based on that. I don't necessarily like ZUN, but I at least respect him enough as content creator to not go against his specific wishes, so if that's not the case for you, that's fine, but at that point, I'm still wondering where the sense of entitlement you tried to turn on me came from.

On the other hand, if that's not what you're implying, then I'm starting to lose track of where you're going with this, to be honest, seeing how you referred mostly to archiving at first while also saying that consumers are not possibly wrong since they have somehow lost access to Touhou even though much of the catalogue is available on Steam, thus serving as the introduction you said they have somehow lost. Following that, you deemed piracy of available titles legitimate as well, so it's both about archiving and free access to games for everyone? Unless, at this point, you're simply taking issue with my taking issue with the western community complaining about the DMCAs, in which case let's just leave it at that since this probably won't go anywhere for the reasons outlined above. Of course, I could just be misunderstanding you entirely in which case I apologize, but it it feels like you're arguing three escalating points but somehow, the consumer is never wrong despite blatantly disregarding the wishes and explicit instructions of the content creator they supposedly revere.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 08:09:11 PM by Petitssk »

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Re: moriyashrine.org got DMCA
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2022, 10:56:03 PM »
all of the official games are back on moriyashrine as torrents, so they're there to stay. /thread i guess? at the very least, both positions can now argue about piracy in a vacuum as the whole dmca thing proved fairly inconsequential for the site.

Petitssk

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Re: moriyashrine.org got DMCA
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2022, 04:17:45 AM »
all of the official games are back on moriyashrine as torrents, so they're there to stay. /thread i guess? at the very least, both positions can now argue about piracy in a vacuum as the whole dmca thing proved fairly inconsequential for the site.

To be fair, it was obvious this would have no lasting effect, though it would have been a surprisingly touching act by the western community. On the other hand, they've made abundantly it clear they don't care about the rights of the content creators they supposedly like, so at least that part no longer has a question mark.

Anyway, there's no stopping piracy, so endlessly going on arguing about it is not the best use of time, I already did that ten years ago in this very same place, so I'm not overly keen on going for another round. Primarily, the issue here was  to what extent they considered themselves victims, as exemplified by their circumventing those specific measures taken against them, and, of course, the fact that they seem to consider (free) access to the games their god-given right while quoting greater causes and purposes and disregarding the rights of content creators. There are cases in which I'd turn a blind eye towards piracy, but the scale on which those guys are doing it is right out of the window from the start, especially when considering the audacity with which they are going at it.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 05:06:41 AM by Petitssk »

Re: moriyashrine.org got DMCA
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2022, 02:16:15 PM »
but it it feels like you're arguing three escalating points but somehow, the consumer is never wrong despite blatantly disregarding the wishes and explicit instructions of the content creator they supposedly revere.
>I've used PC-98 games as just one example
>"So your whole argument is about PC-98 games?"
>"No, it's just one of the examples showcasing how consumers or any fans are in the much worse position here and while I don't expect ZUN to be okay with people pirating or emulating his games, again, there are both game studios and massive corporations who are no okay with that and it's reflected in their public image, it's not like there are japanese or indie devs who are okay with that. Oh wait, they are."
>"It feels like you're arguing three escalating points but somehow, the consumer is never wrong despite blatantly disregarding the wishes and explicit instructions of the content creator they supposedly revere."
https://youtu.be/zmYvjt5lGX0

Primarily, the issue here was  to what extent they considered themselves victims, as exemplified by their circumventing those specific measures taken against them, and, of course, the fact that they seem to consider (free) access to the games their god-given right while quoting greater causes and purposes and disregarding the rights of content creators.
No, they weren't, unless just letting people know they got DMCA'd and saying initially they didn't know if it was because some random kept reporting them means playing a victim card.
There are cases in which I'd turn a blind eye towards piracy, but the scale on which those guys are doing it is right out of the window from the start, especially when considering the audacity with which they are going at it.
What a hero you are.
all of the official games are back on moriyashrine as torrents, so they're there to stay. /thread i guess? at the very least, both positions can now argue about piracy in a vacuum as the whole dmca thing proved fairly inconsequential for the site.
I'll pass because this conversation has become more pointless than a bloody circle, but thanks for letting us know.
I'm done  :meiling: