Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 19F (Read 286675 times)

LonelyGaruga · « **Reply #150 on:** March 02, 2021, 07:28:58 AM »

Dunno about the other stuff but Plus Disk bosses as a whole have much lower defenses than the main game's bosses. They're also much more offensively threatening in exchange. There are still a handful of bosses with high/nearly impenetrable defenses, but that's always part of the fight's gimmick instead of just having super high defenses just because.

Gobbles · « **Reply #151 on:** March 02, 2021, 07:45:58 AM »

I'm afraid I can't help with technical issues. All I can say that it has been stable on windows 10 for me.

Should you decide to start over, characters with good armor piercing: Utsuho, Kaguya, Iku, Eiki. Some others like Yuugi are good as well.
It seems that it is a basic feature to start with a full cast of pre-plus characters (probably after beating the game? not sure what enables it). Apparently some character bosses will be considered already defeated if you do that.

Zoomy Tsugumi · « **Reply #152 on:** March 02, 2021, 09:23:01 AM »

LoT1 has a lot of launch issues on Win10, it happens to me too but I usually find it just opens up in the background and can be found on task manager as a process that you can't play, can delete excess ones and just keep relaunching until it properly opens. Unfortunately do not know of a way to force it to work every time but thankfully it's not toooooo long winded to get it to run.

kael070 · « **Reply #153 on:** March 03, 2021, 06:52:49 AM »

From personal experience, the plus disk bosses have less ridiculous defenses, but still you will do much more damage with the usual characters than before were the only ones that could do any damage instead of 0's (Nitori, Flan, Kaguya, etc)

And in the later parts it ends up having the same problems as the endgame in the first game, huge grindwalls when you go nearing the superbosses, unless you have a very specific setup, you will need to grind for a good while

The entirety of the game took me around 200 hours, with a good chunk being me in the infinite corridor, that place is silly, dull and boring, you just want it to end as soon as possible, not even the items from the shop since I got those from random 5 star chests.

I really hope 3 has no special dungeon like this, or if it has one, make it smaller to go trough, because 640 floors was too much...

Ghaleon · « **Reply #154 on:** March 04, 2021, 03:57:08 AM »

great, thanks for the info. Just saw Remi got a buff too. I like her playstyle in 1 alot, and wanted to in 2. But found that the high defense bosses made her steady/reliable dps/subtank job almost useless since she would just sit there and do 0s for many of them, plus Kasen is in 2, and she just seemed to have a bit too much of the same job as Remi only better in every way except dark resistant enemies or something.

kael070 · « **Reply #155 on:** March 04, 2021, 05:14:21 AM »

Yeah, overall the main disk is like that, if you try attacking with someone not built to deal damage, they will deal pitiful amounts of damage or most probably a 0, while in Laby 1 everyone did at least some damage with almost any attack. I personally don't mind this change too much, makes the main game quite challenging at times, specially if you beat all bosses at the intended challenge level.

And Kasen indeed feels much stronger than everyone in the early game, like the game throws you a bone if you die too much and gives you a really strong character that can breeze through most early stuff.

You may end up with a viable remilia if you invest some level up bonuses on attack, and with the racial bonus with other SDM characters.

Also, for anyone tired of endgame grinding, I'm sharing this small script I made to automate B11F grinding, this script requires autohotkey, and will move your character up on the map, get into battle, use the second skill of the character that gets their first turn, then use the second skill of the character that gets the second turn, then repeat with a move down so it doesn't get stuck.
This assumes both of those characters will take their turns before any of the enemies, and that the second character will wipe out the rest of the enemies, and that your game runs at 60 FPS.
Personally I used this with Nitori+Shou or Nitori+Miko on B11F, since their second skill is one that targets everyone, and wiped all enemies in my case. Feel free to modify it as you see fit
You can pause the script by pressing P, and it doesn't work once any of the 2 characters runs out of MP, so the Dragon God's Power subclass on first character will help quite a bit
Just copy the whole spoiler, save as .ahk file, and execute it.

Spoiler:

Ghaleon · « **Reply #156 on:** March 18, 2021, 11:58:00 PM »

So I started NG+ with new characters unlocked. My party is basically 2/3 of what I love using in 1

I have the full SDM cast because I like them. I hated Sakuya in 1, but I feel like she's way more viable in 2, which is strange since I was complaining about high defense enemies and that's kind of her bane in both games. I figured it would be fun to see how much MORE useful she gets when high defense becomes less of a thing to boot.

Reimu just cuz I never play without her and it would feel wrong to. In labyrinth I mean. Plus the AOE heal, so yeah. Though I do think Reimu is way less useful in 2 than 1 in general. She doesn't have her par, and her defense buff just doesn't seem as important as the first game because there seem to be more aoe defense buffers, and lots of self-buffing abilities in general like Majesty and whatnot. I still wanted her though just so I can feel like how MUCH worse she is in general (or maybe be surprised an d find out she isn't).

I didn't want to take Nitori, because she kinda is broken, but plus disk nerfed her, so why not, that and her super nuke scales better than defense ignoring ones, so it'll be better in the plus disk content I imagine. She and Flan are my only 2 real stupid high defense boss killing characters, I'd say Patchy too but IIRC Patchy's silent Selene does NOT pierce high defenses in 2 nearly as well as it did in 1, even WITH grand incantation, or concentrate, or whatever it's called.

Ran because I love buffing people out of the front 4. Kasen to see how she compares to Remi post remi buff, I really hope remi is noticeably better midgame+ considering I have the full SDM cast, and none of the deva cast other than Kasen (it's deva right? It's been awhile since I've been exposed to touhou lore).

I never really did try cootie-suke much, so I figured I'd give a go at him as a tank.

Minoriko because having so many tanks and above-average endurance characters without a healer to synergize with them would be dumb. IIRC she was actually a really damn good trash cleaner too in 2 unlike 1.

It took me a long time to figure out who to make my last character. I decided to go with Kanako. I wanted to like her in 1, she fits the bill of a damage dealer who is beefy enough to sit comfortably in slot 2 for most fights. But in 1, I just felt like she wasn't actually a good enough damage dealer to really make her worthwhile, aside from the odd super vulnerable to cold enemies. I figured I'll give her a shot in 2 and see if I like her more this time.

Last time I played I had parsee and Hina in there, I really liked Hina's debuffing abilities, and while I wasn't very fond of Parsee's RNG, I saw that her RNG significantly improves in plus disk. However I figured taking Hina would be a waste this time around for post game because Cootie-suke's plus disk traits look crazy for debuffs, and figured if I had both, I'd have something of a wasted slot, and without early game debuffs, and no terror other than Kasen, Parsee would kind of be dead weight until post game too.

edit: I seem to recall that ailment-inducing things stacked, but I can't find somewhere that confirms it. But I can 'stack' an item that inflicts silence for example on say Kasen who also has a silence on all skills skill, and the chances increase correct?

LonelyGaruga · « **Reply #157 on:** March 19, 2021, 06:22:30 AM »

Yes, if a character has an item that allows attacks to inflict a status, attacks that already inflict that status will stack with the item. This can sometimes let you inflict a status on an enemy that you wouldn't have been able to without the item, most relevantly with Yuyuko and the item that adds Death to attacks.

FabulaFares · « **Reply #158 on:** March 19, 2021, 08:32:54 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 18, 2021, 11:58:00 PM

I seem to recall that ailment-inducing things stacked, but I can't find somewhere that confirms it. But I can 'stack' an item that inflicts silence for example on say Kasen who also has a silence on all skills skill, and the chances increase correct?

Passive skills and items stack their effects together. Spells depend a bit though, certain spells do not stack with items/skills, or stack only duration or chance instead of both (see https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Misc#Spellcards_and_Status_stacking)

Gobbles · « **Reply #159 on:** March 19, 2021, 03:33:06 PM »

Also something interesting about how defenses work in this game. I have no solid evidence but based on hundreds of infinite corridor floors I believe that defenses are applied after buffs and debuffs. But before boosts and elemental resistances. That would explain why grand incantation pierces armor so poorly.
Anyone who can confirm this?

LonelyGaruga · « **Reply #160 on:** March 19, 2021, 06:10:20 PM »

Sort of. A very basic summary of the damage formula is (Attack - Defense) * Damage Multiplier. Attack is altered by buffs/debuffs, skills that specifically increase Attack, and part of the spell card modifier. Spell card modifiers follow the above formula exactly, for example, the basic attack is (100% ATK - 50% Target DEF) * 1 (substitute MAG/Target MND for Magic Attack). The English wiki lists the formulas with the modifier applied already, for example, Tenshi's World Creation Press is listed as 269% ATK - 82% T.DEF, this is (1.64x ATK - 0.5x T.DEF) * 1.64. More often than not, spell cards have the same attack and damage multiplier, but not all, for example Sword of Hisou is (1.28x ATK - 0.5x T.DEF) * 2. Probably a good 90% or so of the game's spell cards calculate target defense as 50%.

Anyway, back to explaining the formula. The Attack and Defense values are both affected by the same modifiers (buffs/debuffs, skills, spell card modifiers), the final result is affected by all of the damage multiplier values like affinity, effects that specifically increase damage (not Attack/Magic, but damage), and the spell card multiplier. The 5% damage increase per level for leveling up spell cards is applied here. Grand Incantation is a damage multiplying effect and not an attack multiplying effect, so if you're doing say 20 damage without it, a 140% Boost effect would only be 140% more damage, 48. If the enemy's defenses are high enough to significantly mitigate your damage, Attack/Magic buffs would be much more effective at increasing your damage. But against truly high defenses, your best method of dealing damage would be trying to bypass those defenses as much as possible instead of trying to overpower them.

IRUN · « **Reply #161 on:** March 20, 2021, 02:38:07 AM »

Apparently 3peso is making a proper skill tree for every character for LoT3.

The new dungeon map also looks pretty good.

LonelyGaruga · « **Reply #162 on:** March 20, 2021, 06:08:17 PM »

Initially I assumed that the skill tree picture was one that was shown before, featuring a skill that added an HP regen effect to Great Hakurei Barrier, but in fact, this is a skill that adds a 16% Boost effect to Reimu's Armored Yin-Yang Orb skill. When Armored Yin-Yang Orb reduces a Spirit element attack's damage, the character hit by that attack will receive a 1-hit 16% Boost effect.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #163 on:** March 20, 2021, 06:51:01 PM »

It's not a big deal so I'm not complaining, but just something I like to discuss in general are game mechanics, and frankly I think skill trees are one of the worst forms of customization that everyone uses for some reason. I personally feel like Skill trees are prone to cookie-cutter builds more than most games. Yeah sure every game potentially has a one meta build or something, but when it's a tree, it's normally easier for the layman to figure out, which isn't bad in of itself, but not because t hey are easier to understand, but because you have to take specific paths to get milestone skills down a tree, so your 'customization' is often looking at a few really good deep skills, and taking a 1 way route to it, with maybe a few leftovers that don't matter much in comparison once all is said and done.

I do think the plain old lineup of skills where you can get any of them right at point 1 is a better form of customization.

I guess I like skill grids more too, if t hat's what it's called. You know, path of exile/Final fantasyx, that kinda thing. They generally offer more than one way to get milestone skills and people can vary in their approach and such.

deice · « **Reply #164 on:** March 20, 2021, 07:27:41 PM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 20, 2021, 06:51:01 PM

I guess I like skill grids more too, if t hat's what it's called. You know, path of exile/Final fantasyx, that kinda thing. They generally offer more than one way to get milestone skills and people can vary in their approach and such.

that's exactly what's being pictured i believe. given how the level numbers are written, it would seem that the skill tree goes from top to bottom, and looking at it, there's multiple ways to reach a lot of the nodes (not to mention there's likely no level cap so if you gain points on leveling you'll eventually have the whole tree anyways).

regarding the map screen, it seems that there's now quests or something displayed in the top right? the text is:
- search for cirno who's gone missing
- search for the sheep and ask for meiling's cooperation
- find an item that will get alice's interest (?)

which reveals who we're likely to be recruiting early on, though it's hard to say what the time difference is between getting these and being able to complete them

Ghaleon · « **Reply #165 on:** March 22, 2021, 01:49:55 AM »

What? It does NOT look like path of exile FFx at all to me. Definitely looks more like a Diablo/World of Warcraft style skill tree.

As for getting them all, yeah I suspect that will be the case but that's not what I'm really trying to discuss

FantasyJared · « **Reply #166 on:** March 26, 2021, 03:19:23 AM »

Howdy everyone! Some pretty cool news here. After hours of research, extracting, sourcing, and organizing, I have finished making the most comprehensive playlist for LoT2's soundtrack that exists on YouTube! Feel free to check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0zP4gI98sdfo0f2BOQHW_c160kQ-PoXp

The only thing I can think of that needs some working on is that I haven't been able to identify where quite a few of the Plus Disk songs are located in the game. I haven't quite 100%'d the game yet despite still having a massive amount of experience with it, so if you know where some of the Plus Disk songs appear in-game for any of the videos that are clearly missing that part of the title, then shoot for it and I'll update the playlist as soon as I can. :)

Really happy to finally have something like this on YouTube - hope our little community appreciates the effort as well.

deice · « **Reply #167 on:** March 26, 2021, 08:35:12 AM »

Quote from: FantasyJared on March 26, 2021, 03:19:23 AM

if you know where some of the Plus Disk songs appear in-game for any of the videos that are clearly missing that part of the title, then shoot for it and I'll update the playlist as soon as I can. :)

orchestral mission (by a free music composer called KK https://dova-s.jp/_contents/author/profile024.html) is yamata-no-orochi's battle theme

the rest of the unmarked plus disk songs are all unused to my knowledge, but it has been a bit since i've played so anyone is free to correct me

FantasyJared · « **Reply #168 on:** March 26, 2021, 04:56:01 PM »

Many thanks for the info, Deice! I'll get right to updating the playlist.

jaxter0987 · « **Reply #169 on:** April 04, 2021, 12:15:14 PM »

Like Ghaleon, this is also my first post since the change. Still feels nice to see some old names sticking around after the change. And just like before, I'll probably only be lurking around in here and maybe some other HME threads if some doujin games catch my eyes. Hopefully, I'll get back to play-through and actually start Plus Disk proper. I just kind of got distracted by other games (and will stay distracted for the foreseeable future thanks to Monster Hunter Rise).

I just wanted to get account creation and first post done ever since I decided to check shrinemaiden on a whim late night. I still like Touhou. I still like LoT. I just haven't kept up with Touhou news past TD. To quote someone's signature from the old forums:
"There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away..."
I don't think I'll ever stop being a Touhou fan even as I consume the content less and less often.

And with all that random nonsense out of the way, back to lurking while waiting for LoT3.

ZephyrNightwind · « **Reply #170 on:** April 07, 2021, 05:42:00 AM »

Quote from: jaxter0987 on April 04, 2021, 12:15:14 PM

To quote someone's signature from the old forums:
"There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away..."

That would be my old quote from back then, actually, and I am glad that you remember it. Because it means that I actually left an impression.

FantasyJared · « **Reply #171 on:** April 08, 2021, 11:02:24 PM »

Ooh, some more LoT3 news from the developer! https://twitter.com/aaa_3peso/status/1380163093318221836/photo/1

The new UI of the third game looks insanely polished considering how early on into development it is. The leap in visuals probably won't be nearly as extreme as the jump from the first game to LoT2, but this is still extremely impressive. And in 720p HD/Full 16:9 to boot.

FantasyJared · « **Reply #172 on:** April 09, 2021, 08:38:54 PM »

Bit of a hiccup in the translation here on B11F after you solve all of the puzzles. Thought I'd point this out just in case qazmlpok isn't opposed to updating it again someday. :)

(Really fun floor to explore, by the way - solving all of the puzzles made me feel smarter than I probably actually am! =w=')

Spoiler:

Update: Found another hiccup here:

Spoiler:

Ludibrium · « **Reply #173 on:** April 15, 2021, 03:41:44 AM »

This place seems to have a lot of experience with this game, so I'm wondering if someone can tell me how my stat spreads are supposed to look.

Ever since I cleared the last Tenshi fight I haven't been having fun with the game's bosses at all, with almost every time they breathe an AoE wiping the party outside of tanks (and sometimes those too) and basically the only way I manage to win being if I RNG out a bad moveset from the boss so that people stay alive long enough to buff and nuke them out. Or death cheese them in cases I really hate trying again.

On the other hand even early threads on here for this game pretty much said the game isn't even that challenging so I'm obviously doing something wrong. Nitori as OP as she is doesn't even easily win a damage race for me at 150 ATK into her library points. I'm stuck on the three golden orbs right now since even when I can survive an AoE sometimes it just does two before I get my turn back because it's too fast and wipes us...

My team consists of Tenshi, Iku, Nitori, Mystia, Reimu, Yuyuko, Keine, Mokou, Reisen, Satori, Sanae, and Kasen.

kael070 · « **Reply #174 on:** April 15, 2021, 06:12:16 AM »

Everyone plays the game differently so you can expect mixed results
Me personally, I prefered going full Mag/Atk on the damage dealers, HP/MND/DEF for the girls who wouldn't be dealing damage most of the time, aka support and tanks, and for specific characters I had different bonuses
For Reisen I had all MAG with about 20% on her speed, she was a damage dealer and a debuffer, plus she could keep herself in a better-than-average state with Grand Patriot's Elixir
For Aya i went half HP half SPD, many times she just dodged attacks and if not, she could tank one or 2, specially with an Eirin overheal
Parsee All atk, and a few times some MND, because her mind is so ridiculously high, she can make magical bosses deal 0 damage to her if you set her up correctly

If you are using Iku+Tenshi, you can have Tenshi be a decent attacker, the synergy skill she has with Iku gives a tremendous atk buff, or if you tend to keep them not together on the front row, Tenshi could be a good tank, albeit with lowish HP

Don't worry about the bosses 1shoting the non tanks, thats normal, once you get to know their attacks, and the affinities they favour, you can gear your girls better, affinity make s a huge difference in received damage

If against the orbs the problems is surviving, focus on Orb of Reverse Time as it is the most dangerous one, but then you would have to outdamage the healing and buffs of Canopy, while keeping Forward time alive, because if its the last orb on the battlefield, it will revive the other 2.

You have to pick your poison, take out their main damage dealer or the healer/buffer first, then Forward Time, then the remaining orb.

Btw Canopy is weak to silence, reducing his magical defenses to half, and Forward time to all debuffs, so you can Really make Reisen do some work in this fight, Poison also works well here.

FabulaFares · « **Reply #175 on:** April 15, 2021, 07:54:43 AM »

Generally speaking, you want to prioritize the stats that are most relevant to the character's role with level up points, and balance out everything else with library. An Attacker will probably want full level-up bonuses into their attacking stat, then invest library points into said attacking stat and speed, with some investment into all the other stats too (except for the offensive stat they don't use). For example, a level 50 Nitori may have 50 level-up bonuses into Attack, and then 50 library levels in HP, Attack, Defense, Defense, Mind and Speed (if you don't have enough money, then something like 50 for ATK/SPD and 30 or so for the other stats); tanks will focus on either HP, DEF or MND (depending either on the character's strengths or what enemy you're facing), and Supports (like buffers or debuffers) will probably focus on a mix of defensive stats and Speed.

Make sure to use buffs, debuffs and statuses, since they can make a world of difference. For example, you can inflict Silence on Reverse Time to reduce its Magic stat by 20% (all of its attacks scale with Magic), then buff your defenses to >50% and you should be able to comfortably take its attacks. The same for damage, maximize buffs on your attackers, use damage boosting effects like Herbalist's Herb of Awakening, reduce enemy defenses with statuses or debuffs, and take advantage of passives that increase damage output for the whole frontline (such as Satori's damage bonus on hitting weaknesses).

Ludibrium · « **Reply #176 on:** April 15, 2021, 11:12:53 PM »

Yeah it seems the problem is that I didn't balance out stats in Library. I just used the wiki to throw stats in where it was recommended, and now most characters are too slow to keep up with the bosses. I also can't manage to use the affinity resistance equipment without tanking my attack stats so only my tanks ever get to try those for survival. Not sure how I should get the money to afford this for so many characters though...I guess I could leave someone like Sanae out for dead for her Last Wish and Mystia at nothing just for her Instant Attack switching gimmick.

Is there a good way for me to read the enemy's ATB value? It's not as simple as the value simply being lower meaning they go later because their ATB regen speed can be higher than mine. Not being able to do this very well has costed me a lot of attempts. Also, how accurate does the recommended level tend to be? I've usually been underleveled throughout the game just from not intentionally grinding, which doesn't seem to go very fast in the EXP gain.

kael070 · « **Reply #177 on:** April 16, 2021, 03:32:40 AM »

Its a challenge level, at that level you can beat the boss but it will be difficult, and if you do, you get extra rewards
Only way to measure the atb bar between 2 different speeds is to eye measure it sadly
And while damage may tank if you go for affinity equips, its better than dying, plus if you can buff your characters, it usually evens out, specially later in the game where item value becomes really bloated and doesnt increase stats as you may think

FabulaFares · « **Reply #178 on:** April 16, 2021, 04:32:58 AM »

For the most part, Main Game Challenge levels are really forgiving, even if your party is underleveled and understated you can generally still win without too much trouble with a bit of optimization. It's only starting from Postgame where they actually get mean, and you're basically expected to be exactly on the suggested level and have 1.2x your level in all the relevant library stats.

Regarding equipment, keep in mind that equipment bonuses are additive, so they do get diminishing returns. So equipping, say, 3 Biggest Sword Evers vs 2 Biggest Sword Ever + a defensive item doesn't tank your damage that much. You generally still want full offense if you can afford it, but if you're really struggling with getting your damage dealers to survive, some extra durability in exchange for a bit of damage can be worth it.

LonelyGaruga · « **Reply #179 on:** April 16, 2021, 05:57:25 PM »

Quote from: Ludibrium on April 15, 2021, 11:12:53 PM

Is there a good way for me to read the enemy's ATB value? It's not as simple as the value simply being lower meaning they go later because their ATB regen speed can be higher than mine. Not being able to do this very well has costed me a lot of attempts. Also, how accurate does the recommended level tend to be? I've usually been underleveled throughout the game just from not intentionally grinding, which doesn't seem to go very fast in the EXP gain.

ATB accumulation depends on speed. From 100-200, it is as simple as accumulating ATB by the same value. The speed values on the Golden Orbs is

Forward Time: 160
Reverse Time: 200
Canopy: 178

So they accumulate ATB by the same amount per tick. For the challenge levels, challenging bosses with an average party level that matches the challenge level, generally with a library level of 1.2x that amount (these are the restrictions for hard mode), gives a pretty fairly balanced fight.