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| Foul Detective Satori web-manga discussion thread. |
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| Suspicious person:
Ah yeah, Marisa came to Alice's house by her own will after getting gapped by possessed Yukari, but that is a bit of an impression of mine for reasons I'll mention later. Aside from that, I don't think there was a Yukari repossession around the time : --- Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 06, 2022, 06:30:31 AM --->Yukari's gaps are used to attack Alice and drain her >Presumably, while Yukari is still compromised, she is repossessed and takes Marisa to Alice's house. Possibly just to taunt everyone and show another victim has been taken? >Yukari is drained and abandoned, where she then revives enough to go see Reimu --- End quote --- Yukari's gap doesn't drain magic power, the Vengeful Spirit's possession does, and Alice got possessed since she fell into comatose. Plus, Satori also clearly says that there is no sign of external injuries, so it cannot be an attack besides possession. Besides, The Vengeful Spirit only possess one person at a time, and repossessing Yukari is very unlikely since Yukari was capable of taking action and could easily flee when freed. This is how the chain of events would be in case of a Yukari repossession : - Yukari attacks Alice, gets the vengeful to possess her - She nicely wait there somehow ??? - The vengeful spirit finishes draining Alice, possess Yukari again - Repossessed Yukari takes Marisa to the Forest of Magic Possessing Marisa might have a bit of an issue too, unless the Vengeful Spirit tossed Yukari right after gapping Marisa and hypothetically possessed her, and more importantly is NOT something that was explicitly mentionned in chapter 9.5 where Satori confronts Marisa, however I don't think it's an impossibility. My main reason for thinking that kinda goes with my suspicion about how the plot may be going : my theory regarding this series is that Marisa is working with the Vengeful Spirit, for some reason or another, and the Vengeful Spirit relies on the memory erasing effects of its human possession to deceive Satori's mind reading abilities. The fact that POSSESSED Yukari gapped Marisa away JUST BEFORE Satori gets to see her is what makes me think that way, or Marisa randomly accurately figuring where exactly did Reimu pop up, or Satori getting attacked on her way to see Marisa in the last chapter 15 : if Marisa had nothing incriminating inside her memories, why bail her out ? When it comes to Alice however, we actually never saw when exactly she got possessed, there was this assumption that she got recently got possessed when the manga showed her to us. My impression was that it was possible that she got possessed way earlier before the PCB arc took place : my theory on the chain of events would be that : - The Vengeful Spirit escapes from the SDM and goes to the Forest of Magic to get Marisa - The Vengeful Spirit casually help itself to Alice's magical power on the way (weird occurence considering that it's currently aiming to show to Reimu that the possession happens to the places where the big incidents happened) then ditches - The Vengeful Spirit goes back on track and does the Hakugyoukurou thingy - (chain of events that I previously mentionned happen) - Possessed Yukari gaps Marisa away from Hakurei Shrine, notify her on the way that Alice is knocked out cold It's very likely that Marisa didn't get possessed after she got gapped away, even moreso since if she was plotting something with the Vengeful Spirit (as I assume), she shouldn't have any such memories of plotting at this time (cuz of previous possession), UNLESS she had a hand in Yukari's possession at Hakugyoukurou (if the small drinks on the table were of any relevance or are just extra bonuses from the artist). --- Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 06, 2022, 06:30:31 AM ---It's confirmed that Marisa was possessed when she visited Hakugyokurou, but there's no indication she has been possessed a second time. If she had, she wouldn't remember going to Alice's house, and only one person can be possessed at a time. --- End quote --- Satori brings up that there is a high probability that Marisa has been possessed multiple times, so possessing someone more than once should not be an issue, especially if it's a human who doesn't suffer from the possession side effects Youkai face. It's likely that what happened is exactly as what she told Satori, and it's likely that no Marisa possessions happened after Yukari gapped her, but imo, if she had no incriminating memories to be deleted at the time this happened, there would be little reason to take such brazen action and blow possessed Yukari's cover (along with the legitimacy of the phantom gathering, which wasted quite a bit of time) |
| nintendonut888:
First, when I said "attacked with gaps," I meant "used Yukari's gap powers to travel to Alice's house and attack her." Sorry about that vague wording. Satori's impression that Marisa was the primary host was before she actually talked with Marisa. Afterwards she revised her theory once she determined she wasn't lying. And while it's true a gap in memory may not be something Satori would be able to note per se, she would definitely be able to tell if Marisa was actively conspiring with the criminal or lying during her interrogation at Alice's house. At most, Marisa is her pawn, not a conspirator. And besides, working with someone to hurt Reimu is the one thing Marisa would absolutely never do, no matter the reason. That alone is enough for me to dismiss the idea out of hand, personally. As for Yukari being repossessed, I admit it's a bit of conjecture, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. There's a lot we don't know about the details of this spirit's possession, but given Marisa somehow went to Hakugyokurou while possessed, attacked Yuyuko, and then left without any memory of it has given me the impression there's some degree of post-possession amnesia, where the person is kind of out of it and just kind of moving on automatic (otherwise, anyone would realize something had happened). If Yukari were in such a state, it'd be easy to repossess her. And there's something to support the idea of quick repossession, as well. In chapter 9.5, this is Satori's initial theory of what happened: >Marisa gets possessed while investigating Meiling's attack at the SDM >Travels to Hakugyokurou, attacks Yuyuko >Marisa gets repossessed directly afterwards, goes to attack Alice Whether or not this is something that can be done, Satori seems to believe it's something the spirit is capable of, and she knows more about its methods than anyone. Alternatively, Yukari was drained right before switching to Alice, then repossessed afterwards. I don't think there would be a problem with using someone after draining them, since they're just being used as puppets to begin with. It's a little vague on how exactly Yukari reserved some energy, since the illustration just showed a flower hidden in a gap, but we can assume she accessed it after being drained and abandoned. I'll admit though, the "Alice was attacked before the arc even started" theory is interesting, but given the timeframe other victims have recovered I can't think of a way that would work. Plus, if you look at the frame when Alice's body is shown, there's an overturned teacup, suggesting she was attacked via liquid and not through old-fashioned possession (like I'm assuming happened to Yukari, Marisa, and Sakuya). Still, I'll keep that in the back of my head. |
| Suspicious person:
--- Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2022, 11:22:30 AM ---the "Alice was attacked before the arc even started" theory is interesting, but given the timeframe other victims have recovered I can't think of a way that would work. Plus, if you look at the frame when Alice's body is shown, there's an overturned teacup, suggesting she was attacked via liquid and not through old-fashioned possession (like I'm assuming happened to Yukari, Marisa, and Sakuya). Still, I'll keep that in the back of my head. --- End quote --- Yeah, it may seem kinda weird that Alice's possession would last much longer than Yuyuko's (if she Alice was possessed before Yuyuko), but at the same time, unlike the other victims, she had nobody to nurse her back to health. If she was possessed first, maybe that could have played a role. At any rate, while Satori detected traces of the Vengeful Spirit's thought in the Forest of Magic (Alice and Marisa's turf), it's not specified that it's anything besides mocking thoughts, and at this point Yukari is the one that is still possessed (between step 2 and step 6). If Marisa was being naughty, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vengeful Spirit decided to set her base near her ally since she's got nowhere else to go. Although I'm not really sure about the situation surrounding Alice's tea, previous cases were as such : Patchouli got KO from the coffee that possessed Sakuya served and obviously tampered with, same goes for Meiling after drinking something that got tampered by possessed Patchouli, and likewise for Yuyuko drinking the booze brought by possessed Marisa. This might be reading too much into a mere panel, but imo if you've got a teapot by your immediate side, the chances of getting served by someone else goes down quite a bit. All previous liquid possessions happened in relation with them being served by a possessed person, which is why I was kinda thinking that for Alice's case, mmaybe, JUST maybe it was a regular old boring possession ,although her waking later than Yuyuko kinda suggests that she might have been possessed just as our attention is brought to the forest of magic. At the time, the way things stand is as such : 1 - Vengeful Spirit leaves SDM 1.5 - (???) + the Vengeful Spirit getting in contact with Marisa 2 - Possessed Marisa brings booze to Yuyuko, Yuyuko gets possessed 2.5 - The Vengeful Spirit had to leave Yuyuko in order to get Yukari 3 - Marisa and Reimu meets Yukari, Yukari later gets possessed 4 - Various events happen, Satori detects traces of the Vengeful Spirit's thoughts in the Forest of Magic 5 - Still possessed Yukari sends Marisa to the forest of magic 6 - bla bla previous argument, either repossession or Yukari ditching Maybe the Vengeful Spirit infected her tea, dunno And since we're talking about liquid related possession, I'm actually kinda curious about how did Marisa get possessed after the SDM arc. Regular non liquid possession is something that Vengeful Spirits are capable of doing (even brought up when the culprit being a Vengeful Spirit is revealed), but hasn't actually happened "on camera" in this manga. Although this might get clarified depending on whether Mokou is currently possessed or not. --- Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2022, 11:22:30 AM ---At most, Marisa is her pawn, not a conspirator. And besides, working with someone to hurt Reimu is the one thing Marisa would absolutely never do, no matter the reason. That alone is enough for me to dismiss the idea out of hand, personally. --- End quote --- I also don't think the endgame of the Vengeful Spirit is about harming Reimu, since there were quite a few opportunies to do just that previously : for example, she could have just used a possessed Sakuya (before Reimu was made aware of the possessions) to do a surprise attack featuring time powers, or used Yukari and possibly attack Reimu when she was confining herself. Even most of the previous victims didn't particularly suffer any serious harm (despite magic loss supposedly being serious for Youkai) : weak Patchouli still got to move around, while Yuyuko is plenty capable of giving a freaking piggyback : the only person who truly have been harmed at this point would be Satori at the end of Chapter 15 : if the big bad's motives aren't about seriously harming Reimu, then Marisa getting enlisted doesn't seem off the table. I'm leaning more towards the Marisa-is-an-accomplice route because I can't picture Marisa to get manipulated at convenience, plus the things that require a proper partner that is on the ball in the more recent chapters. While Chapter 9.5 generally seem to absolve Marisa at that point, I think there are too many suspicious things surrounding her circumstances for her to be totally clean : - She got Reimu to be involved in this whole possession ordeal back in the beginning, EVEN exaggerated the facts (saying that Patchouli is dead) to get Reimu's interest - Seemingly being the Vengeful Spirit's possession target (like why), with Satori suspecting her to already having been possessed multiple times - Her intrusion in Eientei, which even coincide with the Vengeful Spirit's letter's threat --- Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2022, 11:22:30 AM ---And while it's true a gap in memory may not be something Satori would be able to note per se, she would definitely be able to tell if Marisa was actively conspiring with the criminal or lying during her interrogation at Alice's house. --- End quote --- Still going by the angle where Marisa may be a conspirator, imo "refreshing" Marisa should not be too much of a challenge : something that seems suspicious to me happens in the start of the IN arc, where Marisa, somehow, figures out exactly that Reimu is in Eientei and even enlist Mokou's help to get just there : before this happens, an supposedly good Marisa was trying to rely on Reimu's intuition to find the Vengeful Spirit, but couldn't ask Reimu since she went to Eientei after a not-possessed-anymore Yukari told her about the Vengeful Spirit's intentions : if Marisa was going to rely on Reimu's help to find something, how did she figure Reimu's current location with exact precision ? Especially if she wasn't made aware of the Vengeful Spirit's objectives ? Extremely suspicious to me, what's with her randomly getting a bunch of highly accurate information. I think things probably went this : - Reimu goes to Eientei - Marisa doesn't find Reimu, may have met up with the Vengeful Spirit - A possibly possessed Marisa goes to meet Mokou - Possibility that the Vengeful Spirit is moved onto Mokou, since she wasn't on Marisa anymore at the time of the capture IF Marisa is indeed an accomplice instead of just an unwitting pawn, her motives would currently elude me. Unless it has something to do with the identity of the Vengeful Spirit who is totally M*ma As for the mysterious, unidentified and enigmatic Vengeful Spirit's motives, I think the revenge she wants to take on Gensokyo has gotta be something that's a little bit different from just harming everyone, especially Reimu (since Marisa wouldn't harm her bestie). Still not sure what her exact objective is or how her plan's endgame gonna be. |
| nintendonut888:
The whole "Patchouli is dead" thing honestly just seems like a running gag to me. Everyone is so excited over a murder mystery they keep calling the victim "the body." I wouldn't read too much into it, since I'm pretty sure Marisa isn't the only one to use this line. As for Marisa figuring out Eientei is the next location, it's true that it isn't shown on screen, but I think it's a fair argument that she simply put the pieces together like Satori did. After all, even someone with no interaction with the surface at the time like Satori was able to figure out Eientei was the next target after gaining some basic information about the incident orders - someone directly involved like Marisa would be able to connect the dots together. Rereading past chapters for this, I'm even more convinced Marisa isn't an accomplice. When she visits the shrine to look for Reimu, she shows clear concern and confusion, despite nobody else being around. Unless we're talking David Cage levels of bad mystery writing, there's no reason for her to "fool" anyone in this circumstance. That being said, I do find it curious how in the most recent chapter, she seemingly forgot why she came to Eientei in the first place until Eirin prompted her to remember. That is strange, but I reserve judgement until we see more. I suppose I can't rule out the theory that she was intercepted by the spirit on her way to Eientei, but then why would she remember meeting Mokou in the first place? And lastly, as for the spirit's motives, I think it not attacking Reimu yet isn't so much that this isn't its ultimate goal as it's a classic trope of the villain wanting their victim to suffer before striking. A lot of its movements, from these elaborate escapes/infiltrations to mimicking the order of the incidents seems to be done with the express purpose of taunting and/or scaring Reimu. If its motive is revenge, it makes sense it wouldn't just go the most straightforward route. Because otherwise yeah, it would have been game over the moment Yuyuko was taken over. |
| nintendonut888:
The translation isn't up yet, but I was able to understand most of it in Japanese, thankfully. The most important detail of the chapter below: We have a name: Mizuchi Miyadeguchi. Sorry Mima fans. |
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