Author Topic: Neo Forum Mafia - Game Over  (Read 1029453 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2020, 08:36:10 PM »
@ conq i would have written notes were i not in class, but the gist of my reads list

me (this section is townlocks and a joke in this context)

refa

nuxl
you
dormio

prims (?)

almost everyone else

i feel like theres someone i forgot that definitely goes here dankpuff

<n/a>

(if the structure seems off, i have townlocks and scumlocks, as well as townleans and scumleans, so account for those)

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2020, 08:37:58 PM »
I think Prims' read is fine in that it's not scummy but I think non-sf/motk is so different (based more around townhunting instead of scumhunting) that I don't think it actually reflects badly on Nuxl, yet. I think that it becomes scummy if nothing changes over time, but it's not worth looking at for now.

Zeep, what alignment would you guess Nuxl as? There's a lot of Nuxl defence but I don't actually know what your read on him is. Cut: my question was literally "what do you think of Nuxl" so respond to this, I guess.

Nuxl, if I told you Oarfish has had a number of dubious plays in past games (remembering the Serela vengekill still makes me want to scream a little), what would your read on them be? I think seeing your notes now rather than later is good.

funny that i had my readslist about to post then this post comes up

maybe im oversympathizing with him but hes getting a lot of flak for something that is, as conq said earlier, NAI. as for the weird defense idk??? its not a pocket attempt so i cant rly see it as scummy and idk what advantage he gets as scum for it regardless

also hes not spamming thread guys smh this is just a manner of posting

cough. those are my thoughts ig

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2020, 08:40:49 PM »
error in reads post: there should be another n/a below the first n/a.

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2020, 08:42:39 PM »
me (this section is townlocks and a joke in this context)

refa

nuxl
you
dormio
prims (?)

almost everyone else

i feel like theres someone i forgot that definitely goes here dankpuff

<n/a>

<n/a>

revised to make more sense. please use this as a baseline

Refa

  • There's a crying tree dropping apples on me...
  • ...and now I'm fighting God
    • You Won't Believe
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2020, 08:46:39 PM »
I'm already demotivated, mafia sucks. Someone needs to post something I can get an actually legit scum read off of.

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #245 on: March 06, 2020, 08:54:33 PM »
I'm already demotivated, mafia sucks. Someone needs to post something I can get an actually legit scum read off of.

i feel this dammit

Refa

  • There's a crying tree dropping apples on me...
  • ...and now I'm fighting God
    • You Won't Believe
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #246 on: March 06, 2020, 08:55:46 PM »
this is kind of a bad q right? im not interested in forcing a read i currently don't have if it's not high confidence

but homework for you: can you look at o4rfish's initial two posts on page 7 and tell me what you think? i think the skill level of that player is very important for my read on them. ignore the other posts they have, i have prewritten notes on the page for the other posts but need to know if what im seeing is just me

i think shadowehs page 4 was a weak ping (i even responded to it! guys im scumhunting omg)bc that sort of declaration was made like 5 hours itg. If I had to connect it, it reminds me of something tbz did as scum to justify his rvs vote on smogon rewind on smogon dot com. so i can see the votes behind it. i don't mega hate the prims vote post but also do not remember it at this point of time

It's less forcing a read and more trying to see where your thought process is at the moment.

I don't like talking about people's skill levels but I think Oarfish being really confident in his reads (and the logic being wack) is...something I can see coming from him as town. Disclaimer: I have never played with Scum Oarfish, but I wouldn't scumread him just because the logic doesn't check out.

at this point of the game townreads are more important because you have a poe to work under. it's easier to correctly identify somebody as town and work under a winning poe than scumreading honestly. in the latter you are easily able to make a declaration of "this person does not feel town" and thus can shove them in for later

of course, happens in games with eggs in one basket players

This is more of a gameplay difference thing so don't wanna derail things too much but it is easier for scum to fake townreads than to fake scumreads; townreads are still important and honestly I agree so much easier to get earlier in the game, but yeah.

I'm too lazy to quote here but how experienced is Zwerd? I feel like it was mentioned before but I don't remember.

I think Prims' read is fine in that it's not scummy but I think non-sf/motk is so different (based more around townhunting instead of scumhunting) that I don't think it actually reflects badly on Nuxl, yet. I think that it becomes scummy if nothing changes over time, but it's not worth looking at for now.

Fair enough.

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #247 on: March 06, 2020, 08:59:22 PM »
i guess ill answer

ive only begun playing "real mafia" about half a year ago, and the rest of the time was spent on ps. ive also gone through various playstyle changes and tbh im still kind of finding one that im good with. so you could put about 6 months of experience behind me ish and any more would either be a stretch or too much credit

but i am well-versed in a few scumhunting strats, its just a new site + new site meta so im very unsure of what to expect

Refa

  • There's a crying tree dropping apples on me...
  • ...and now I'm fighting God
    • You Won't Believe
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #248 on: March 06, 2020, 09:00:22 PM »
That does explain things (also sorry if it seems like we're hassling you about this). Zwerd, can you explain your reads on Nuxl/SB/Dormio and also look at Shadoweh's posts (there are only like two so it should be easy) and comment on her wagon?

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #249 on: March 06, 2020, 09:09:08 PM »
That does explain things (also sorry if it seems like we're hassling you about this). Zwerd, can you explain your reads on Nuxl/SB/Dormio and also look at Shadoweh's posts (there are only like two so it should be easy) and comment on her wagon?

nuxl: explained prior

dormio: normally i wouldnt really townlean someone who asks so many questions. but i feel like rather than trying to pause progress, i think hes trying to gain insight on the players hes dealing with. its respectable, and id be a hypocrite if i scumread him for it because its literally what im doing. though his question asking isnt necessarily alignment indicative, i think tonally hes a bit better than a null read

sb: i think you meant conqueror. sb so far is like... decently null. 

conq (which i assume you meant): hes kind of trying to draw attention to different parts of the thread rather than zooming in on something (or so i think, i could reread his iso if im wrong). not exactly something scum would do. though again i may be misinterpreting his posts

i will read shadoweh later... after i eat dinner. im lazy and i dont wanna do mafia things rn dankpuff

and its not a problem lol i wouldnt put thoughts out there without reasoning so youre justified in probing like this

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #250 on: March 06, 2020, 09:11:26 PM »
Makes sense, I'd only skimmed the very top of the pile.

Anyway, it seems the majority of the posts are zwerdjib and Nuxl posting everything that pops into their brains and overthinking things. Something that keeps coming up is "Meta".

Allow me to address that:

1: It's been like; 2~3 years since the last MotK Mafia. The "Meta" could likly have changed. Especially considering there are new players so even if everyone played the same, new players could disrupt the "Meta"

2: Meta is generally scum low-effort and don't contribute much. Town chase each other in tails trying to find scummy things and make cases so they look like they are making ~effort~ to look like town. However, by virtue of posting more content, there is more for the other townies to use to try and make some sort of case. This leads to town lynching town while scum just lurks; wagons, or pushes wagons.

Except we also have players who always low-effort like NekoNekoRex. And of course, people's lives have changed. My activity is going to be absolutely nowhere near where it used to be, for example.

tl;dr: You newcomers really shouldn't worry about the "Meta". Your very existence makes any previous "Meta" irrelevant anyway.

okay but that's not what meta means. it's an attributed tool you can pinpoint differences between how a player plays as one alignment compared to the other. additionally you can connect trends from one game to another provided it's relevant. lot of people are using this too liberally and at this point i'll just chalk it up to site differences

I think Prims' read is fine in that it's not scummy but I think non-sf/motk is so different (based more around townhunting instead of scumhunting) that I don't think it actually reflects badly on Nuxl, yet. I think that it becomes scummy if nothing changes over time, but it's not worth looking at for now.

Zeep, what alignment would you guess Nuxl as? There's a lot of Nuxl defence but I don't actually know what your read on him is. Cut: my question was literally "what do you think of Nuxl" so respond to this, I guess.

Nuxl, if I told you Oarfish has had a number of dubious plays in past games (remembering the Serela vengekill still makes me want to scream a little), what would your read on them be? I think seeing your notes now rather than later is good.

don't get what you mean by "reflects badly". why would their read reflect badly on me

dubious plays as both alignments or just as town? if it's just the latter then that's way more important thanks

(on smogon, certain players have really brazy town games but somehow get more composure as scum because they tend to be coached to make certain posts/gameplans. so that's why skill level is really important here)

my initial first read of them was that their entrance was pretty bad. not like scummy, it was just logically terrible. if someone like you made this post for example it would be a pretty big wtf for me. you can see that the logic behind it is so baffling right? the assumptions they made in their second post on 7 are not assumptions normal players would reach. there was an overt worrying about my amount of posts (instead of, you know, the content they provide which is stuff you can read. the entire thing about post volume is totally nai on a general sense but given i think dormio brought this up too then i have to assume that people on this site feel this way). some smogoners do stuff like this often and they're almost impossible to sort so they're just left for tailend of poe

but their anger in their response post to me led me to believe they had some sort of belief in their content and their push. so that's why i wanted to get a heads up on that slot. if it's a historical issue then it can be boxed


@Refa when you look at Niektory, i'm going to put out the person "Flee Fleet". does that ring a bell?

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #251 on: March 06, 2020, 09:13:25 PM »
It's less forcing a read and more trying to see where your thought process is at the moment.

I don't like talking about people's skill levels but I think Oarfish being really confident in his reads (and the logic being wack) is...something I can see coming from him as town. Disclaimer: I have never played with Scum Oarfish, but I wouldn't scumread him just because the logic doesn't check out.

okay cool i kinda talked about this in my latest post, thanks


This is more of a gameplay difference thing so don't wanna derail things too much but it is easier for scum to fake townreads than to fake scumreads; townreads are still important and honestly I agree so much easier to get earlier in the game, but yeah.

I'm too lazy to quote here but how experienced is Zwerd? I feel like it was mentioned before but I don't remember.

i dunno, i've never played with him. i attributed something characteristics of his posting to a player back home who gets squint eyes about it often

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #252 on: March 06, 2020, 09:55:54 PM »
Okay, so I have a confession to make. Around the time I called you a goonhead, I realized you were just trying to get a rise out of me, but I kept going because I wanted to see what you would do. How does that change your read of my reaction?
Good good, we have a lot of material to make for Len so you'd better keep performing  :-* (the more you post the townier you sound so etc)

Quote
I don't actually get your Prims vote atm, is it just because he found us suspicious in a throwaway line? It feels like you were just trying to find a way to get your vote off me and picked Prims for some reason I can't really figure out.
I guess that's not entirely wrong, I didn't feel like voting you anymore and I didn't like that he was framing us as a fight when there is... a lot of other material to look at that should be grabbing more attention at that phase. Has he posted again btw, i don't think he has but its hard to see. :V Regardless I've decided flailing blindly in random directions was a much better meta then waiting to be sure about stuff has been working on mofiascum.

Shadoweh's response isn't good, but if you look at her followup posts this whole thing can be viewed as a triple word score "Just joking ... unless? Also flirty" poke at Conq.
Perfect, just as planned :relieved:

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #253 on: March 06, 2020, 09:57:51 PM »
I do declare that Dormio and Oarfish come off as "the townie" to me as well, I frown at SB for bullying me for trying to have fun, trying to be a grumpypants is scummy. We should enjoy ourselves here, you can't let common sense hold you back in Gensokyo!

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #254 on: March 06, 2020, 10:02:23 PM »
I guess that's not entirely wrong, I didn't feel like voting you anymore and I didn't like that he was framing us as a fight when there is... a lot of other material to look at that should be grabbing more attention at that phase. Has he posted again btw, i don't think he has but its hard to see.

what other material are you referring to and do you have "attention" to give to said material? why is "should" important

AbuHumaid

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #255 on: March 06, 2020, 10:03:28 PM »
Abu, how was the part you quoted subtle? I understand the rest of what you're saying (but don't think it's scummy) but I don't think that Nuxl has tried to keep the fact he's defending Zeep on the down-low at all. Why is Nuxl here scum defending Zeep instead of town defending Zeep? What would you expect to be different?
It's not that post specifically that's subtle, but rather his defence of zwerd that I found subtle since he shrugged it off as "it's just a joke" when he got pressured, but I guess "subtle" is not the right word? Nuxl here was defending zwerd with baseless confidence and weak reasons; something I would expect a scum to do to try to pocket a townie, as I would expect a townie to show a little bit of uncertainty in his read, especially that early into the game.

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #256 on: March 06, 2020, 10:03:54 PM »
what other material are you referring to and do you have "attention" to give to said material? why is "should" important
rephrasing my last question: why should some things warrant more attention than others

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #257 on: March 06, 2020, 10:06:11 PM »
It's not that post specifically that's subtle, but rather his defence of zwerd that I found subtle since he shrugged it off as "it's just a joke" when he got pressured, but I guess "subtle" is not the right word? Nuxl here was defending zwerd with baseless confidence and weak reasons; something I would expect a scum to do to try to pocket a townie, as I would expect a townie to show a little bit of uncertainty in his read, especially that early into the game.
It's not that post specifically that's subtle, but rather his defence of zwerd that I found subtle since he shrugged it off as "it's just a joke" when he got pressured, but I guess "subtle" is not the right word? Nuxl here was defending zwerd with baseless confidence and weak reasons; something I would expect a scum to do to try to pocket a townie, as I would expect a townie to show a little bit of uncertainty in his read, especially that early into the game.

did you clearly read the post you're saying that had "pressure"? did you even read my response to you or

and i happen to exude baseless confidence naturally. i've even linked my iso for you! :)

zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #258 on: March 06, 2020, 10:15:12 PM »
I do declare that Dormio and Oarfish come off as "the townie" to me as well, I frown at SB for bullying me for trying to have fun, trying to be a grumpypants is scummy. We should enjoy ourselves here, you can't let common sense hold you back in Gensokyo!

i do admit this is probably the most fun ive had playing a mafia game in about 2 years


Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #259 on: March 06, 2020, 10:28:27 PM »
don't get what you mean by "reflects badly". why would their read reflect badly on me

dubious plays as both alignments or just as town? if it's just the latter then that's way more important thanks

Like I said, MotK and SF have traditionally been more scumhunting focused than townhunting focused and so generally townreads on people would just emerge from them posting organically and their cases looking like they have thought into them and are likely to come from town mindsets, rather than people trying to prove their alignment outright. This is why I think Prims scumread you effectively and why I think it makes sense for him to do it even if I don't agree with it. Obviously though I know it's not an all or nothing thing wrt scumhunting or townhunting so if there still wasn't much of the former later it'd be weird.

I don't know if its both alignments because I don't actually remember a game with scum Oarfish, but they are definitely not good to read with uh, traditional expectations in mind, I'd say. The explanation makes sense I guess.

I frown at SB for bullying me for trying to have fun, trying to be a grumpypants is scummy. We should enjoy ourselves here, you can't let common sense hold you back in Gensokyo!

THERE IS NO FUN ALLOWED IN THE UNFORGIVING COLD OF THE NOC WASTELAND. I think I understand your Prims vote a little more if you didn't want to be voting Conq, but I still don't understand why you thought Prims' point on you was scummy? He already had opinions on other players so it didn't feel like he would have a reason to try too hard to poop out content to me. What other things do you think he could've commented on that he didn't?

Abu, what do you think of Zeep?

AbuHumaid

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #260 on: March 06, 2020, 10:30:49 PM »
did you clearly read the post you're saying that had "pressure"? did you even read my response to you or

and i happen to exude baseless confidence naturally. i've even linked my iso for you! :)
Oops, I think I did misread the post LOL, but it really looked like O4rfish was questioning your read, and not the threat, so I was confused.

And fine I'll read that ISO.

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #261 on: March 06, 2020, 10:34:48 PM »
Like I said, MotK and SF have traditionally been more scumhunting focused than townhunting focused and so generally townreads on people would just emerge from them posting organically and their cases looking like they have thought into them and are likely to come from town mindsets, rather than people trying to prove their alignment outright. This is why I think Prims scumread you effectively and why I think it makes sense for him to do it even if I don't agree with it. Obviously though I know it's not an all or nothing thing wrt scumhunting or townhunting so if there still wasn't much of the former later it'd be weird.

I don't know if its both alignments because I don't actually remember a game with scum Oarfish, but they are definitely not good to read with uh, traditional expectations in mind, I'd say. The explanation makes sense I guess.

usually on my homesite my alignment is very obvious to the people that know my meta well. my own habits leaking of course but i'm certain this is probably just a testament of site culture

you asked for my notes, i gave you them. do you have any thoughts on them and how they reflect the slot/player in question or are they not safe to share as of yet

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #262 on: March 06, 2020, 10:36:31 PM »
Oops, I think I did misread the post LOL, but it really looked like O4rfish was questioning your read, and not the threat, so I was confused.

And fine I'll read that ISO.

yeah, but what's your query with my read? wasn't the first time i defended the slot this game. is confidence really alignment indicative iyo? (or is it indicative from where you're from or something)

i was kind of half-trolling with the last line, but the resource is there

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #263 on: March 06, 2020, 10:38:26 PM »
I'm referring to you and zwerb posting over 5 pages of material dingus

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #264 on: March 06, 2020, 10:39:59 PM »
rephrasing my last question: why should some things warrant more attention than others
Me joking with conq during rvs isn't alignment indicative so making a big deal out of it is suspicious to me.

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #265 on: March 06, 2020, 10:40:40 PM »
Me joking with conq during rvs isn't alignment indicative so making a big deal out of it is suspicious to me.

was your page 4 post serious? genuine question

AbuHumaid

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #266 on: March 06, 2020, 10:41:25 PM »
@sb About Zeep, I don't think he has done anything that makes me feel strongly about him. I think I have to go backread some of his posts because honestly, I have been skimming; reading is hard.

Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #267 on: March 06, 2020, 10:42:31 PM »
you asked for my notes, i gave you them. do you have any thoughts on them and how they reflect the slot/player in question or are they not safe to share as of yet

The explanation is reasonable (and along with too many games of mislynching Oarfish it's the reason I'm not suspicious of them for it). It doesn't feel telling for your alignment either because it's a lot of logic that could be applied as both town or scum so I didn't think there was anything else to really pursue there.

I do have one more thought about how to read into Oarfish, but saying it right now is a waste.

Nuxl

  • smogon.com/forums/members/nuxl.149971/
  • smogon.com/forums/forums/circus-maximus.78/
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #268 on: March 06, 2020, 10:44:28 PM »
I do have one more thought about how to read into Oarfish, but saying it right now is a waste.

there we go. stuff like this is important so i'll wait until it is. it's why i'm a fan of crypticism in general


zwerdjib

  • Exalted,
  • and zealous.
    • Twitch
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • zwerdjib#7147
  • Gender: probably a male
Re: Neo Forum Mafia - Day 1
« Reply #269 on: March 06, 2020, 10:45:36 PM »
Me joking with conq during rvs isn't alignment indicative so making a big deal out of it is suspicious to me.

dont give me an excuse to not read your posts because i will procrastinate and not read them