Author Topic: TH17-19 Music Discussion  (Read 629 times)

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williewillus

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TH17-19 Music Discussion
« on: March 26, 2025, 06:17:46 AM »
Taking up CyberAngel's challenge from this post.

Going to be splitting a reply per game, one per day. Starting off with....

Touhou 17

Title Theme: Silent Beast Spirits
I still remember when the demo came out I was so surprised by this theme I stayed on the menu to listen to it twice before jumping into the game. It starts off dark and the layers build on top of each other well. Then you get the little piano jingle and you drop into this little "mysterious" and even more sinister sounding part, then it breaks in to the main theme of eastern story chorus. This is one of my favorite title themes in the series.

Stage 1: A Grief only Known by Jizo
Spooky Lead and the choir gives this a very lonely, desolate feeling. I love the meandering emotion that comes up during the midboss section. There's a Chinese word 彷徨, which roughly means "wandering", "to not know where to go" that I feel that section captures perfectly.

Eika: Jelly Stone
Rapid spooky lead is fun, though I actually don't like this theme as much as some other people do.

Stage 2: Lost River
The highlight of this track is the main melody that starts when the midboss enters (0:54) and also at the climax (1:30). The time signature being in-3 gives me "rowing a boat along the Sanzu River towards the afterlife" vibe.

Urumi: The Stone Baby and the Submerged Bovine
Idk what exactly the instrument is, but the low one that's there in the bass from the start is so meaty and...thicc. Idk how else to put it lol. Also the lead instrument at 0:17 literally sounds like a cow mooing, which I guess is what ZUN was going for.

Stage 3: Everlasting Red Spider Lily
So the gameplay in this stage is ass, but the main melody loop is catchy and earworms you pretty well when you're playing through the 100th aimed pattern in the stage.

Kutaka: Seraphic Chicken
The rhythm of this tracks seems all over the place at first (esp at 1:12 and when he stacks more on top at 1:42) but it gives the feeling of a chicken running around so well, I love it.

Stage 4: Unlocated Hell
Was "shook" when I entered this stage for the first time in the full demo. It goes hard with the guitar, and I like how it's contrasted with almost pleasant-sounding piano in the verse at 0:57. My favorite part of this track is the lead up to the midboss drop (1:50-2:05), you get this triumphant trumpet verse, then ZUN blends it with the piano from the first part of the track and it just works.

Yachie: Tortoise Dragon
Actually probably one of my least favorite tracks in the game, contrary to popular opinion it seems lol. The rhythm's nice I guess?

Stage 5: Beast Metropolis
Super strong piano melody, but the bass and percussion keeps the "beast/hell" vibes going. The wistful mood at 0:42 is great, and the track carries that forward at 1:06 going into and past the midboss into the key change.

Mayumi: Joutonin of Ceramics
The climax triplets at 0:47 are great and give me a bit of a "pirates of the Caribbean" vibe

Stage 6: Electric Heritage
Disco party to the final showdown, the theme. People pick on ZUN for reusing the boss theme in the stage theme in recent games, but it's different enough here that I don't mind. Midboss section (0:35) gives me the feeling of flying above a war-torn battlefield on the way to the final mastermind

Keiki: Idolatrize World
Instant classic in the series when it came out and not for no reason. Epic-style opening, classical ZUN piano melody, add in guitar in the second verse. Throwback to the stage theme on the build up to the climax then let the ZUNpets rip. The continued climax adds extra brass underneath which enriches the melody quite a bit. Eventually, you get TOES to reinforce more of the "epic" feeling, which he weaves into the loop pretty masterfully.

Extra: Shining Law of the Strong Eating the Weak
(possible) Toccata and Fugue reference = love. I also love the trumpet leaps at the climax (2:16), it gives the track a very majestic and almost uplifting mood.

Saki: Prince Shoutoku's Horse
The theme overall is very prancy, and the brass at 1:54 gives off the mood of a horse neighing really well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2025, 06:34:01 AM by williewillus »

Suspicious person

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2025, 04:12:19 PM »
Hmmm, contemporary Touhou music discussions and analysis are ones that don't typically pop up, and as someone who is a bit opinionated and quite in favor of Touhou 17 especially, I wanna get in too. I've always been reserved when it comes to making musical analysis due to limitations pertaining to the relevant linguo plus lack of ability to distinguish the exact time signatures, but here goes :

First of all, regarding ZUN's game music, they're generally made in a way where they match specific parts of the stage (start of the stage, midboss, end of stage) AND even be arranged in a way where it capture a particular kind of mood (a rather clear objective in Touhou 17, whose motifs leans heavily into Hell and the afterlife), while in the boss themes he tries to capture certains aspects related to the boss (his reasoning for making the music such or such way can be read in his comments in the music room).

So with that in mind, here's my analysis of the stages themes for Touhou 17 first of all :

Stage 1 theme : This is Sai no Kawara. Pretty much the dead children's Limbo (heavy stuff normally), with a twist. The song opens with this weird harpsichord-like sounding instrument (not sure what the name is exactly), with strange choirs going on in the background, even bells-like instruments towards the middle : very eerie, it might as well say "haunted place". However, as we reachto the middle part of the song, Eika pops up. Choirs shut down. The squeaky instrument that played before gets more and more highkey (like I said, I'm not big on music linguo) and therefore more hopefull, less dark. This is Children's Limbo, the ghost of dead children wander about and spend their afterlife in penance, trying to pointlessly stack stones that get knocked up, yet Eika has turned the whole process into a game and a competition : the place is therefore not as sad and depresing as it should have been, but carries a bit of hope and joy, and the song reflects that before things quiet down as it prepares to loop

Stage 2 theme : The Sanzu River, basically a physical border between this world and the next. There are only the spirits who didn't reach Higan as well as creatures from more ancient era here, a friendless place where we're lost in and try to stumble or way through. The beeping instrument and the muffled ZUNpet, the repeatitiveness of it all, there's a sense of oprression as you're lost in the vast expanse of the Sanzu river ... then, boom, full stop, some semblance of normalty as we finally meet a normal(?) ish person, our potential clue towards our main goal, but then she's already gone, and we're back to the vast and uncomfortable quietude of the Sanzu River ... I like to think of the music sounding more and more clear as we reach the end of stage as symbolizing the end of our wandering about.

Stage 3 theme : Higan. Essentially the waiting room for those who are awaiting judgement for the Touhou verse. Vast expanse of red spider lillies as the eye can see, but despite this beauty, there's no life to be found. A quiet and eerie place, with nothing but ominous flowers and spirits to its name. The bells from the intro get absorbed by the main melody, where its just pleasant background noise for the muffled ZUNpet instrument, and as we reach the mid boss, where we not only get proper ZUNpets like usual, but the bells play a different tune too, a break from the monotony of Higan, before returning to business as usual. A quiet, muffled song yet with a beauty that's supported by the bells, which capture the loneliness and emptiness of Higan, yet in spite of all that, we still have the odd encounter to break the initial impression.

All in all, the first three stage from the demo are fairly eerie, capture emptiness end solitude, and the quietude provided by the muffled ZUNpet (or whatever the damn instrument's name is) as well as a generally slow pace (dunno the exact time signature but they're obviously slow and quiet sounding) are quite likely how ZUN conceives Touhou's afterlife and its empty quietude.

Stage 4 : Hell. Finally, and for real. No more melancholic nonsense, none of that corny beauty crap, it's Hell and you're gonna feel it. You're greeted by a harsh tune in the intro, a massive contrast with all the previous songs, yet there's still a bit of uncertainty with those deep pianos notes in the intro, as it builds up and up into a surprisingly relaxed melody : has the reality of it finally settled in ? We know whaat's up as the relaxed piano get absorbed into harsher ZUNtars. Yet it's not enough, we have a goal that we're searching for, more build up is necessary as we further our search, then boom, mid boss section, the first real clue towards our search, climax of the song as we dive back into the hail of bullets, there's no quiet piano anymore, only high key notes, the confidence with which we're comingfor the confrontation and the resolution of incident.

Stage 5 : Beast Metropolis. An unheard before and completely alien world, with very different value from ours. It's an actual dog eat dog, where beasts exploits beasts, and the weakest creatures of all has little choice but try to make themselves smaller in the little space given to them ... a dystopia where each and everyone is a ressource. The entire place is filled with massive skyscrapers, but beneath the pompousness of it all, the sad reality : it's not a good place to be. The slow, quiet melancholic piano tunes we get in the earlier parts of the song, captures the misery of the human spirits. But then the tempo accelerates : drums get more and more loud : it's the usual buildup towards the midboss, and guess what, it's a Haniwa ! The solution towards the sheer misery of the Human Spirits, the idols they pray for and who will vanquish the vile beasts for them, before the quietude again. Is it this quietude the return to normalcy under the beast spirits or the new Haniwa overlords ? It's not sure, but one things remain certain : it's still the Animal Realm, and it's not a good place to be ...

Stage 6 : No real impressions here, just your standard fare buildup to epicness. The song itself has parts of the final boss's theme, and as you get to the mid boss section, things relatively quiet down (but it's still part of the boss's theme). Theme of Eastern story plays as you blast your way through the silly human spirits who clearly forgot their place, meaningless distraction before the final confrontation.

Extra stage : same impression as stage 4 here overall, agressive percussion straight at the beginning in lieu of the agressive guitars, but still an agressive use of an instrument that captures the essence of Hell. It's the hell we've grown to be familiar with (we're back again), and the song overall feels less aggressive and forcceful than stage 4's aside from the more forcefull ZUNpets we get as we face the midboss, but it's more welcoming now. But we reach the end of the song and the harsh ZUNpets returns to remind you that this place is still Hell and of the threat that you're about to face ...



All in all, a relatively dramatic interpretation of the songs paired with understanding of the presented world this time. I've always considered Touhou 17's stage themes to be among the best when it comes to setting the atmosphere. Definitely quite a few ways away from SA's interpretation of Hell, where we have the adventurousness of spelunking in stage 1, the mystery and loneliness of stage 2, the festiveness of stage 3, the fanciness of Heartfelt Fancy, the loneliness and emptiness of stage 5, and the menace and bravery of stage 6. Touhou 17 tells a concise story based in the afterlife and in Hell, with undertones rooted in a dystopian form of modern society ... the instrumentation is also quite different from other titles, making Touhou 17's OST pretty interesting and unique, but probably heavy on the instruments-that-makes-it-sound-lonely on one side, and the very memorable harshness of Hell on the other



As for the characters themes, they're primarily about trying to encompass parts of the essence of characters. Therefore, my impression of them is so :

Eika's theme : the ingenious spirit who transformed Sai no Kawara's penance into a pleasant game, but no mistake here, she's got a bit of an attitude to show for those who try to cause trouble here. It's a song that tries to puff itself with a strong ZUNtar intro + ZUNriffs, but despite all that bravado, it's shows itself for what it truly is, in the cutsy repeatitive main part of the song : really just a little girl.

Urumi's theme : a weight manipulating cow-spider youkai. It sounds slow and dragged on, with suspicious instruments that try to emulate the Moo from the animals she's primarily based off. But despite the terror of the place you fight her with and her true nature, the slowness of the song reveals her for what she truly is : just a laid back youkai, quite eager to help us, possibly to break away from the monotony

Kutaka's theme : no real comment here, but it captures the liveliness of the chickens she stands for rather than any qualities / traits she has herself. A very hectic song, quite the discrepancy considering the sheer calmness of the previous stage 3 song. Chickens generally have a warm color, are associated with the sun, give the eggs you eat in the morning as well as greet the sunrise : they're very bright and cheerful creatures, and the sheer loudness and fast pace of the song captures them quite well

Kicchou's theme : one of the weirder themes. It's got like two distincts melodies, an aggressively beeping one that tries to aggrandize itself with these choirs and be threatening as when it gets faster, then, calm, slow whisttle-like instruments that keeps the insistant piano song after each time it plays ... then back to the beebing again but quieter, and then unto the whisttling. ZUN song climax typically have a lot of the previously used instruments make a return, but for her, the climax is ... quite quiet, not as loud as you'd expect of a ZUN climax, and retain the quiet, and urgent sounding tone it had previously ... all in all, a piece that doesn't grant the satisfaction of a grandiose climax but instead the pressure of one which give a sense of urgency. A relatively uncomfortable and oppressive piece, which lets you experience what feeling you'll have when confrontated by the boss of the Kiketsu Family, irresistible and insidious.

Mayumi's theme : comes off strong and slow, it's not scared or need to make a point. It's here, stalwart, and quite menacing as the guitars and beat combos come, and show it's rigidity in how its more rhythmic sections are consigned in very specific parts of the song. Highly rigid and almost mechanical, but beneath that, the bravery and resilience of the Haniwa corps : it's not afraid to get loud, to show you it's got teeth. A militaristic theme that's quite dignified in its quietude.

Keiki's theme : the craftsman god who reshaped the Beast Realm, one clay doll at a time. About as grandiose as you'd expect of, the piano just capture the glory and the greatness of such a respectable being, it's a song that's completely isolated from the struggle of the human spirits and the grudges of the animal spirits : it's pretty clear and loud, the ZUNpet gets pretty loud as it wants to sing eulogies towards her greatness, and the theme of Eastern story come around as a bonus to tell you that this is of importance. ZUN style climax is back here, it's a final boss theme-like final boss theme. Dunno what to really say here, but's it's quite a grand theme overall. No attempt to show quiet dignity like for Kanako, no reformed goddess-that-walks-among-us relaxed vibes like for Suwako, she's a major god who doesn't carry any baggage but just displays what she can do to its maximum.

Kurokoma's theme : a brave and bold sounding opening, it continues into a slow and cool, wild-west like fashion, then full stop : it gets slower. Quieter. Deeper. Darker. The piano slows down while the song gets more low key, and boom, it's back and really insistant on being low key ... and more menacing. Just like her theme, the leader of the Keiga family is a brave, bold and daring leader who is more than willing to handle the dirty deed herself, quite far from a saint. When the piano starts to slow down and you get more of those low keys, you figure it out : she's not one of the good guys. A theme that perfectly encapsulate her personality, it screams "villain" in the same vein as Seija's theme.


Overall, we still have ZUN's regular style where he set the mood with the music on one side, and tries to capture the characters on the other. Touhou 17's instrumentations is what make it stand aside from the previous games (every single one of which has their own unique vibes and instrumentation), and the insistence on fitting the mood for a Hell and afterlife game with dystopian undertones does trickle into the soundtrack imo. Games songs have a vague-ish intro before getting full blown, while music CDs can afford to have an ENTIRE track dedicated to being either the intro track of the final track with fitting mood. The lower points of the OST for me would be Urumi and Kicchou's themes, with potentially the stage 4 and extra ones with harsh instrumentations for me, but overall, I think ZUN succeeds at creating and capturing a particular kind of mood for this game.

Also no particularly big comment on the title screen, the ending screens theme, and the credits theme, just that the eerieness of the title screen (plus a relatively catchy start) makes it quite unique.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2025, 04:31:16 PM by Suspicious person »

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2025, 06:56:05 AM »
Touhou 18

Title: Rainbow-Crossed Gensokyo
The standard title theme. I like how the lead melody arcs up these really broad intervals which connects with the whole rainbow theming.

Stage 1: Shower of Strange Occurrences
ZUN's stage 1 themes never miss and this isn't an exception, the piano starts it off with a strong melody, while you have this almost EoSD stage 1-ish bass line throughout. The key change syncs with the background and gives you a wondrous "sunlight after the shower" feeling. I also like the little "pa-lings" the piano does at the top of each of its arpeggios, it's like raindrops pitter-pattering on the ground.

Mike: Kitten of Great Fortune
Short and sweet, the instrumentation is intentionally balanced and utilized to give "nyan nyan" vibes which is what it's supposed to do.

Stage 2: Cliff Hidden in Deep Green
If I had to pick a least favorite track over the previous few games it's probably this one. Not bad but not much to write about.

Takane: Banditry Technology
Also not much to write about, but this is one of the better ZUNtar melodies I think

Stage 3: Perpetual Snow of Komakusa Blossoms
I love this track. It's a major key, in a rare move for ZUN, and it's just a lovely and very singable melody. The final repetition of the main melody at the end of the stage (2:10-2:20) always gives me a really fuzzy, warm, and homely feeling inside. Which I guess doesn't really match all that well with the stage and plot, but it's more of a "I love Touhou" feeling.

Sannyo: Smoking Dragon
I think my favorite part of this track is the funky arpeggios in the background playing a riff on theme of eastern story. The TJD version makes this 30x better the original is still pretty good.

Stage 4: Abandoned Industrial Remains
I absolutely love the flamenco-style guitars in use. The flute also lends itself well to a feeling of "wind blowing through an abandoned mine". Overall it reminds me of something that you could play when on a nostalgic minecart tour of an abandoned mine.

Misumaru: Ore from the Age of the Gods
The climax (0:45) is balanced/mixed really well IMO, this would have been kind of a mess mixing wise if it were still DDC-era ZUN or before.

Stage 5: Long Awaited Oumagatoki
I am an absolute sucker for 5/4 tracks, but outside of that the main melody is really strong -- the way it reaches higher and higher, up to an octave each phrase, symbolizes the climbing of the mountain really well. The track then slowly develops into a fanfare under the stars during the final fairy formations at 2:25.

Megumu: Starry Mountain of Tenma
The repeated eighth notes in each measure of the melody are really nice, and lend the theme a very SNES-y retro vibe, which was what ZUN is going for.

Stage 6: Lunar Rainbow
The main verse gives HUGE PC98 vibes and I am all for it.

Chimata: Where is that Bustling Marketplace Now
Pretty controversial theme when it came out, and still somewhat dividing from what I can tell. To be honest, I didn't buy the theme fully either when it first came out, but I do understand better now the intended link between the theme and Chimata's character -- how it always tries to reach a climax but never really manages to do it, it's fighting hard for its life like Chimata herself is (and the world was, at the time of composition).
But one thing I do like is the "serious" part of it at 1:52, the percussion is tasty and the melody is catchy and balanced well.

Extra: Great Fantastic Underground Rail Network
My favorite extra theme in the series. It's in your face and intense with the guitar and chorus, but keeps the previous musical ideas from the mine by using the flute to drive the melody. The midboss section particularly epic -- it repeats the same musical idea twice for the first two midboss spells, and the second time (2:10) it holds the trumpet note in a fiery manner all the way to the phrase's conclusion into the third midboss spell, and onward into the almost trance-like loop as the gameplay reaches the post-midboss section.
There is so much to gush about with this track, it's my definite favorite in the game alongside Stage 3.

Momoyo: Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings
th18.mp4 ahem
Relatively arcadey style for ZUN, which makes sense given this entire character is a Mushihimesama in a CAVE reference. I like the "shiny and positive" main melody parts of the theme a lot, especially 1:47.

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 02:08:59 AM »
Touhou 18.5

People really strawberries on this game's music but idk why, I like all of the tracks here a lot more than the VD tracks.

Title: The Collector's Melancholy Afternoon
Very laid back theme, I like the introduction a lot.

Early Stages: An Exciting and Familiar Gensokyo
I like the clarinetish instrument. The chorus at 1:05 as well as the buildup to it is nice.

Early Boss: Youkai Hook On
Pretty barebones with only one significant musical idea, but I like how frantic and prancy it is.

Middle Stages: Black Markets Can Happen Anywhere, Anytime
My favorite of the game, the second verse and key change section is absolutely amazing (1:50-2:36). My favorite of favorite is the descending synth "glitter" that leads up to the key change.

Strong Boss: Take Thy Danmaku In Hand, O Bulletphiles
I guess if I had to pick a least favorite track in this game, this would be it. Not bad, but not too special. The best part is the bare trumpet verse at 0:23.

Late Stages: The Hundredth Black Market
Primary melody is classical romantic and nostalgic ZUN. At times it feels wandering and lost, but it always finds its way back to the main melody -- perhaps symbolic of doujin culture and Touhou as a whole. I quite like this track and also how well it fits with the UM Stage 5 sunset background.