Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: williewillus on May 10, 2025, 01:08:53 AM
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Making a thread to centralize discussion on this and keep the main Touhou 20 thread clear for gameplay and other non-AI-asset-related chatter.
The Steam page for Touhou 20 went up today and it contained Valve's new required AI disclosures, for which this game has the following
AI GENERATED CONTENT DISCLOSURE
The developers describe how their game uses AI Generated Content like this:
Some background textures include Al-generated content.
There is nothing that is being generated live in real-time by Al.
So it's confirmed that the backgrounds people thought were AI-generated are in fact AI-generated. Probably some in UDoALG as well, but UDoALG predates Steam's AI-generated disclosure.
Just wanted to open the floor to discussion of how people think about this. I'll put my opinion in a reply.
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Part of me is somewhat disappointed in this happening, especially since all of these years in the Windows era, ZUN has been using stock art from various art books and stock art collections, which gave the games a bit of a charming indie aesthetic. On the other hand, however, the backgrounds were never something ZUN made himself, it's always been something outsourced.
I've seen some chatter from people about how ZUN is supposedly super anti-AI, but I don't buy it. The full contents of those podcasts/interviews aren't translated, but my take is ZUN has always had a line he draws between what he wants to do himself and what to outsource, and the backgrounds fall on the not side. From his perspective, it's probably not much different, getting it from AI versus an artbook.
Also, according to this tweet, https://x.com/ryoya12951295/status/1919766666541490567 the poster for an event that ZUN admitted was AI-generated was apparently generated using "clean" AI such as Firefly, which aims to not have copyrighted information in the training set. But there's also contention that Firefly isn't as clean (https://www.tomsguide.com/ai/ai-image-video/adobe-firefly-used-thousands-of-midjourney-images-in-training-its-ethical-ai-model) as they're trying to sell it.
I am personally a pretty strong generative-AI hater, especially when used for synthesis purposes (generating music/art/text, as opposed to summarization and tweaking human input). I think it's an affront to the creative arts, and I'm sad ZUN is using it. I don't think he'll expand his usage of it further than this, though, as the line between his work and outsourced work hasn't actually changed in this game.
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This seems to be the most even-handed and comprehensive thread on the subject as of now:
https://x.com/richard_effendi/status/1921015276033741160
I'm still letting my thoughts settle, but if it's true this Firefly was what ZUN used (if indeed this was on purpose - the steam description makes it unclear if this was on purpose or accidental), it is disappointing but a sign that he at least intended to be "ethical." In my opinion, that means that it's a crime of ignorance, and one that can hopefully be addressed. But I am quite vehemently against AI, and if this remains in the full game I will be disappointed, no matter how much I respect ZUN as a whole.
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Unrolled IceFairy's thread for people that don't have Twitter (thanks sorrowfulmizuki on Discord for unrolling this for me)
Now that Touhou 20 is out on Steam and we have confirmation that the background does indeed use AI generated images, it's time to talk about Touhou backgrounds, the GTP drunk stream, as well as ZUN's stance on AI. A thread.🧵
Soon after the release of the Touhou 20 demo, there were questions if the backgrounds featured in the game were generated by AI, as well as discussion on the drunk stream ZUN had last December where they also discussed AI.
Since the discussion was not archived and all we had was undetailed descriptions from a blog, I took the liberty of having someone ask around for more information regarding the stream, including the original writer of the blog itself, who has since updated the post.
We managed to get some information in regards as how ZUN uses ChatGPT, how he generated the background for the poster, what sort of AI he uses and why.
In regards to his ChatGPT usage, it seems to be the same type of use he mentioned in a SCoOW interview, not using it for art.
For the background in the poster for the event if you look closely at the fractal patterns behind Reimu, the patterns are not consistent. It appears to have been created using either Photoshop or Adobe Firefly.
As for why he decided to use AI for that, it appears that it's because Adobe Firefly is (supposedly) trained using only their library of stock image and public domain materials, making it simply another source of stock image to draw from.
It is well documented that Touhou backgrounds make extensive usage of royalty free stock images, whether from reference books, asset packs, Wikiedia, or even Deviant Art.
So since he already uses stock image he didn't make himself for the background, Adobe Firefly provides him with a quick way to get illustrations for backgrounds without needing to spend too much time searching all over the internet.
As for ZUN's stance on AI.
Personally, I don't believe his stance is "AI is abhorrent", but it's not "AI is the future", either. It's simply that "AI is not a creative tool, but one for economy and efficiency".
Whether you think this makes his usage ok, that is up to you. I think it's ok if you're upset/disappointed and wish to no longer support the series/ZUN. But I also think it's ok if you're not bothered by it, as well. I don't think either reaction makes you more or less of a fan.
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Wtf that's genuinely a strange move for ZUN. I tend to believe that you must do honest work to get honest earning, and in my perspective, using AI isn't an honest work; it's slimy, used by lazy idiots who don't even lift a finger to work to earn money. I am really mixed with the idea you can use AI for commercial product, as it means you use a generative robot to do that stuff. Hopefully he fixes this, because I feel this could be a bad thing in the future.
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Boooo, gave the guy the benefit of the doubt on this one but honestly kinda disappointed on the reliance on AI for a main Touhou game
Now the usual stock image being royalty free (meaning nobody missing out on any cash monies) plus background images generally being a little more than flavor bonus means that there's no real harm nor the like here, but the concern for me is how much of a slippery slope AI can be. Technology will only keep on improving, and AI capabilities will only grow up more and more. What if AI gets to play a more prevalent role in the future ? Backgrounds generated off already royalty free stock images is already pretty borderline to me, and that despite how minor it is, and I hope it's not gonna get worse in the future. It would feel a bit deceptive if large chunks of my favorite magical girl series turns out to have been made by some soulless robot instead of my favorite drunkard, in the future.
There are places where AI can be relied on, and places where its help can make breakthroughs, but I don't believe creative / artistic endeavours are part of that. Normalizing AI use in creative / artistic endeavours is a suspicious slope of questionable slipperiness that I don't think creators should want to find out. I hope that ZUN'll backtrack and even go through the trouble of finding vaguely fitting background art despite the trouble, if its just to make a purely symbolic statement.
At any rate a very rare ZUN L ...
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a crime of ignorance
it's slimy, used by lazy idiots who don't even lift a finger to work to earn money.
At any rate a very rare ZUN L
Wait until you all find out he traced over art for his PC-98 games.
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sengoku rance marisa lmao
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Wait until you all find out he traced over art for his PC-98 games.
Nah, I wouldn't worry about tracing that he hasn't done in decades nor have bigger implications
The most important parts of the game + characters are handled by ZUN, but the willingness to rely on AI can be worrisome for those wsho don't really like it : it's only minor backgrounds for now, but I hope it won't be more for the future : like, Mr AI model, can you draw me a 2hu or design my game ? Stuff like that.
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I honestly can't say I care too much whether or not he's used some AI-generated assets. I'm in the camp of thinking AI overreliance (and overreach) being a bad thing, and agreeing with the view that AI should never replace human creativity in a professional capacity (especially as it harms the job market), but when it's being used in an indie title for visual purposes, and doesn't infringe on someone else's work, I don't think it really matters. ZUN seems to have used it responsibly and for its intended purpose. Slippery slopes are one thing, but I have enough faith in the man that it doesn't detract terribly from the game for me. He's more or less just doing what he's always done, as has been said.
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sengoku rance marisa lmao
We don't talk about Rance here buddy boy... :cirnotan: :cirnotan:
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Mr AI model, can you draw me a 2hu or design my game ? Stuff like that.
See, that I feel is everyones biggest concern, and in my mind feels unbased.
ZUN may be fine with using ai to create or find images to use, but he still thought up the locations himself. And even more so on 2hus and game, the main things he wants to do.
I just couldnt ever see ZUN handing the reigns of working on and creating stuff over to ai, in that interview where he talks about his usage of ai he says that he found image generators really boring and that he would rather make something himself, and thats just images; ZUN puts a lot of care and time into the characters and story because Touhou is a personal thing to him. People are justifiably paranoid, but to me as long as ZUN still has the creative spirit hes always had, he will always want to make stuff himself.
Besides, to me this is a really low offense, literally just textures and images; people are acting like ai ruins the magic, and yeah sure ZUN probably didnt have to manipulate images as much and people like that stuff, but reiterating that all this stuff was still thought up by him, not an ai, and there was still work from him too.
He didnt ask ai to make him a pyramid, he asked ai for pictures of rocks that he then made into a whole stage that goes from cliff into pyramid from, see the difference? He himself made a spinning pyramid model, not an ai. He himself made that shot of going into the cliff, not an ai.
As for how it affects my view of the game? It doesnt, because to me the whole ai image thing is its own separate thing, and has nothing to do with how I should feel about the game; I cant fault the game and I dont really want to fault ZUN, but the blame does go to him, the game gets none and shouldnt have to be vindicated.
I am being very optimistic, and frankly I wish more people would too. Do what Dutch says:
Have some goddamn faith
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Wait until you all find out he traced over art for his PC-98 games.
Oh trust me, I know all about the issues with PoDD. But I'm also not in the business of holding against someone something dubious they did 28 years ago for a game that sold maybe 200 copies in its lifetime. My hopes are simply that if ZUN did indeed use AI, even supposedly "clean" AI (and Firefly sounds like it still has many ethical problems even if it is technically not stealing art), he'll change his tune with time and grow from it, just like he stopped improperly using assets after the PC-98 days. It all comes down to how he responds to this, imo.
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Lets be honest, the ai images already present are not going away, ZUN has a history of not touching things in demos and i dont think the backgrounds are something that high on his list, even if we yell at him.
We can only hope that the rest of the game doesnt have any ai images, but dont get your hopes up.
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Wait until you all find out he traced over art for his PC-98 games.
Which is at least partially the reason why so many people don't even want to consider PC-98 games canon anymore.
The issue with AI art here isn't even a legal or moral one, though that's enough for some to go up in arms. It's that it stands out clearly enough for people to have identified it from day one. And it's one of the things that are so uncanny that you just can't unsee once you recognize it. And let's be real here, was there any reason to use AI in the first place? If it's trained on stock and free art anyway, why not use THAT, just like before? Nobody would mind if old assets were reused either.
The most troubling thing about AI usage is that it's not character art or music that's next on that slippery slope. It's bullet patterns. Maybe not for spellcards, those have to be thoroughly thought through. But I feel there might be a strong temptation to leave stages and nonspells to a hands-off approach. Which can end up feeling no different from procedural generation, and might get to the point of going through untested. Not like ZUN's manual balancing was nearly thorough enough in the past, but potentially relying on AI for that would be a scary new low.
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I'm not too worried myself. I imagine he'll keep to just expediting what he used stock assets for already. I don't really see him relying on genAI for bullet patterns aside from quick reference or something along those lines. I find it unlikely he'll allow it to detract from the parts that matter.
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Nobody would mind if old assets were reused either.
Idk some people have gotten annoyed at how often forest.png (tm) was used in lolk, hsifs (twice I think?), and UM lol
It's bullet patterns
How would that work? There's a multi step process there that I'm pretty sure current AI's can't handle or would give really obviously terrible results doing. Especially since ZUN uses his own scripting language for patterns, for which there is no training data.
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I've been defending ZUN and him not using AI while these rumours have been going around and it being revealed that he does use AI was a pretty big hit to me.
As CyberAngel said, all of this is just unnecessary. Unless ZUN has been living under a rock for 2 years then he should obviously know that using AI to any degree in a work is controversial. So why even do this just to save like 2 hours of extra work on his game. If ZUN thought that saving time was a bigger priority over potential ethics problems and dissatisfying the fanbase then that worries me over the mindset he might be starting to develop as time goes on which many people here have already elaborated on.
And if we assume that UDoALG also has AI content then it just further proves that ZUN doesn't really care and that he only bothered to be public about it because Steam made him. If he did actually use AI for UDoALG then he should come out about it or else it ruins the point of being "public" about him using AI.
I highly doubt he's is going to suddenly have an epiphany regarding his actions and attone for his mistakes. The only way I can ever see him changing this is if some boycott or protest happens and ZUN doesn't care about us westerners so that leaves the Japanese Touhou players. And while I don't know what the stance of the average Japanese Touhou player is, I would like to assume that since doujins are a very important aspect to Touhou, that they appreciate the personal efforts that go into art and are against AI, but to be fair I also thought that way about ZUN and it turns out I'm not as right as I thought I was. Although correct me if I'm wrong, I can't really recall any times where the Japanese Touhou fanbase have decided to band together in order to have ZUN change something in the games.
I can understand the point some people make about it being such a minor thing to worry about and that it was already content not made by him but this just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. This situation is absolutely pointless. Funnily enough, it could have all been avoided if ZUN just decided to put an extra hour into his work.
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How would that work? There's a multi step process there that I'm pretty sure current AI's can't handle or would give really obviously terrible results doing. Especially since ZUN uses his own scripting language for patterns, for which there is no training data.
From what I know, that scripting language is not much different from the usual code, so a specialized coding AI probably wouldn't need that much effort to set up compared to a completely custom language. As for training, he should still have the data from 18.5 and UDoALG :meiling:
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The person behind the previous Twitter thread posted a follow-up explaining the nuances of ZUN’s decision.
https://fxtwitter.com/richard_effendi/status/1921213802495828468
I pretty much agree with this. One has to keep in mind that AI’s presence in the western world is quite different from how it is viewed elsewhere. And ZUN electing to use it in a single part of game development where he already makes use of stock assets and spends a long time searching for the right pictures to tweak, it will expedite the process that much more to allow room for working on the parts he enjoys more. Especially so when he tries to avoid burnout.
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Unless ZUN has been living under a rock for 2 years
I just think he isn't as "online", like the kids say, as most of his fans.
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Idk some people have gotten annoyed at how often forest.png (tm) was used in lolk, hsifs (twice I think?), and UM lol
Ahem, hello, some people here, I don't really find the reuse of old assets to be that bad since ZUN generally adds extra flavor anyway. It's acceptable and understandable (and a very indie & doujin game design philosophy) that a one-team small developper would reuse functionnal assets that they already have for whatever work they'll do, so also OK despite seeing Reimu's same old back for decades or even freaking IN sprites in decimal games : unneccessary new innovations would only take away from the limited time, energy and ressources of small devs. Heck, even TH15 makes a random reuse of a TH12 lotus pattern image, and you'll need to dig extra hard to find less than a handfull of people outraged there.
The person behind the previous Twitter thread posted a follow-up explaining the nuances of ZUN’s decision.
https://fxtwitter.com/richard_effendi/status/1921213802495828468
I pretty much agree with this. One has to keep in mind that AI’s presence in the western world is quite different from how it is viewed elsewhere. And ZUN electing to use it in a single part of game development where he already makes use of stock assets and spends a long time searching for the right pictures to tweak, it will expedite the process that much more to allow room for working on the parts he enjoys more. Especially so when he tries to avoid burnout.
What's hard to imagine for me is how hard that process of looking up an image can be. Here's an immediate example : google up "egyptian background motif stock image royalty free" and boom, https://www.shutterstock.com/search/egyptian-motifs, plenty of fresh choices off of shutterstock : a bit inconceivable that the search would take a lot of time in light of this, so the efficiency argument falls apart to me. Even in game, due to the additional shadowy layer, bullets + movement of the background, you wouldn't have the leisure to identify and process whatever's in the spellcard background, meaning that whatever flavor ZUN's trying to go for with AI isn't adding much. So going the extra mile to experiment with AI generation is just hard to understand for me, cuz as things currently stands, it's a decision that only invites controversy and worry.
Now the "acceptable" boundary for AI use in my mind has been set to "miscellaneous backgrounds", and I hope these suspicious AI experiments won't push them further back. All work is tedious anyways, and once AI's capabilities as a tool evolve to be able to undertake more complex tasks, who's to say what other "expeditious work" it'll be used for, if efficiency is the main consideration ? I'm trying to have faith, but this is overall an unpleasant pill to swallow. I hope we won't get more of these for the full release, just as a purely symbolic statement.
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Well, even by this point we still dont know the exact reasoning why ai is being used, so until that comes out we can only speculate if any of it will go further.
Also, bit odd, but gratitude over how everyone is handling this, were doing pretty good at being civil and even though ive seen plenty of people be disappointed theyve all been very understanding and respectful, honestly it feels like a commodity at this point and im glad that we could deliver well.
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And ZUN electing to use it in a single part of game development where he already makes use of stock assets and spends a long time searching for the right pictures to tweak, it will expedite the process that much more to allow room for working on the parts he enjoys more. Especially so when he tries to avoid burnout.
What do you expect from a doujin work? I expect something that the author would put a lot of work into every aspect of purely out of love for the artform. I expect something that I can go into every detail of and know that it's a conscious decision by the author that they might have spent a lot of time on. ...This might be an idealistic view that might not even be true a lot of times, but I still believe it's an ideal that best embodies the doujin spirit. I don't think it's wrong for doujin authors to use means that would help them in making their works. However, I do believe that any usage of AI generated content is a step too far from that doujin spirit. You can no longer be sure about how intentional any details in such a work can be once that enters the picture. And that takes away A LOT of enjoyment you could have from such works.
One has to keep in mind that AI’s presence in the western world is quite different from how it is viewed elsewhere.
I just think he isn't as "online", like the kids say, as most of his fans.
Oh really? Well, why don't we let them know about it then?
Here is what I suggest to anyone who has an issue with this matter. Once the game comes out on Steam - buy it, do a single run (or just listen to the music test), then refund it and leave a negative review that mentions your feelings on AI art usage, preferably in English AND Japanese. If you want your voices to be heard, I can think of no better way.
And if anyone thinks this is going too far - it's best for fans to put their foot down this early before AI usage goes much further than that. Even if ZUN himself won't go beyond using it for background textures, other doujin authors might see that AI art was taken well, most likely without bothering to go into details, and use it themselves in much more invasive ways. If they need "AI=bad" hammered into their heads then it's worth doing so as soon as possible.
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Like I said, the second Twitter thread is a pretty comprehensive explanation of how this situation may have come to be.
EDIT: ZUN already doesn't create his own background assets, simply editing what he can find to best suit whatever intention he has. So in so far as how this affects Touhou specifically I don't really think anything changes just because he's made use of Firefly for this aspect. Even when using stock images, he clearly has had some specific vision of how he'd like the visuals to be that he spends time working into the game to the point you rarely notice that they're things he's found on the internet. As far as I can tell, Doujin has always been a bit loose with how assets are used in developing a game anyway.
As for how this might affect other Japanese developers? Who knows. As Icefairy outlined, Japanese media and communities don't have the same associations with AI that English-speaking communities do, so it is very possible it will become easier for Japanese developers to rely on it as a tool. Though I can't imagine Western gamers would allow for egregious cases to pass. It would be a real speedy way for the developers to become a laughingstock among them.
I'm kinda indifferent so long as the overall quality and the creative efforts remain as is through the intentions of the developers. In one-man shows like this, anyway.
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Personally speaking, I don't really think review bombing would have the intended effect, most of all because ZUN is a person and not a corporation (also, recall that until six years ago there was no market to sell to the west at all and he got along fine without us). If this arose due to a misapprehension about a certain AI generator being "ethical" to use, then I think showing him why it is a mistake would be much more likely to have an effect - though it's foolish to think the average person would get a one on one chance to convey this.
At worst, he'll see the outrage as a cultural difference and write the complaints off without looking into them, maybe even distancing himself from this side of the fandom. Remember that we are a periphery of the greater fandom, and if you actually want to make a positive impact you should try and engage with that in mind - and I don't think a distinctly western tactic like mass review bombing is going to be what does it.
Really, for the time being there's nothing to be done but hear from him how this came about and why. I'm guessing the monthly Touhou Radio near the end of the month is when this is most likely to happen.
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Well, just sitting there and not buying the game will definitely accomplish nothing. That is way more likely to be written off as more fans just getting bored of the series. And it's not like I'm saying everyone should do it. I don't think even everyone who has an issue with this joining in would be able to move the needle much from the usual "Overwhelmingly Positive" rating. But if there's even a slim chance it might get the message through then I believe it's worth to do something with the game you wouldn't play anyway. Otherwise, well, don't come crying if things get worse in the future.
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I would like to say some words about this topic. I just wanted to briefly summarize the information about this topic.
I suspected that ZUN was using AI since the first suspicious backgrounds were extracted and I have been observing what was happening in Western and Japanese Twitter.
I think you know the situation in the West. The attitude towards AI in Japan is different from the West. For now, in Japanese Touhou community there are three main points of view on this topic: "supporters" (pro-AI/don't care much about AI), "moderate" anti-AI (against AI, and may not like the fact that ZUN uses it; but using it only for backgrounds is acceptable) and "hardline" anti-AI (against AI and hate the fact that ZUN uses it). It is hard to say the actual size of each group, but since the beginning "supporters" were the most vocal, recently "hardline" anti-AI tried to be vocal (but they just mostly showed that? yes, they exist; but anyway they gathered some attention).
About ZUN's opinion on AI it is much more complicated than just "that radio broadcast in December". He already had some interesting views about AI around WBaWC release in SCoOW. There were some other later statements about AI like "things that can already be made by AI can be left to AI" and "it would be better if AI spreads" in 2023 + he already insinuated that AI reduces the amount of work required around UDoALG release; but at the same time he said that value of things made by humans themselves would increase.
About AI and Doujin. First of all, takes about copyrights wouldn't be taken seriously. Next, AI is already allowed (with or without limitations) on many Doujin events (including Comiket and Reitaisai (and I wrote about that several months ago)). The question "what is a doujin thing and what is not" is difficult. There are many things which are normal in Doujin now and which were no-no many years ago. The Doujin scene hasn't fully decided yet if AI is acceptable or not, there are different opinions on this topic (for example there are people who want to ban AI on Comiket).
What actually disappointed me is how Westerners reacted (I am not talking about the point of view but the reaction itself). I understand why many Westerners are against AI. But it looks like they don't learn from their mistakes. You should know that Japanese fans would protect ZUN. But I don't understand why many Western anti-AI decided to directly confront ZUN. The reaction of Japanese fans is obvious in this situation. Maybe it is a better idea to change tactics? Being overemotional won't help. There is a thing about ZUN using AI about which even many Japanese "supporters" would agree that it is a bad thing. The problem is that many Westerners don't care much about that and not fully understand it. I think I gave enough hints.
I hope this information was useful.
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What actually disappointed me is how Westerners reacted (I am not talking about the point of view but the reaction itself). I understand why many Westerners are against AI. But it looks like they don't learn from their mistakes. You should know that Japanese fans would protect ZUN. But I don't understand why many Western anti-AI decided to directly confront ZUN. The reaction of Japanese fans is obvious in this situation. Maybe it is a better idea to change tactics? Being overemotional won't help. There is a thing about ZUN using AI about which even many Japanese "supporters" would agree that it is a bad thing. The problem is that many Westerners don't care much about that and not fully understand it. I think I gave enough hints.
I hope this information was useful.
The japanese side who gets to interact with ZUN at various conventions might find him more personable cuz they get to interact with him at real events, so I'd get why they'd have discussions about him in a more understanding way, while most of those overseas (not just the west) don't even get to meet him but experience his work and appreciate all the things that have derived from it : he can pretty much be considered to be a symbol of something else that the regular corpos and entertainment industry doesn't provide rather than just an individual tbh, and the faith and goodwill that ZUN has acquired over the years is getting heavily tested cuz of this recent AI thingy.
Besides, there is something that should be reminded, the crux of this discussion, despite all these interviews and work time reduction talk : we have a very REAL use of AI now, and its for at least a SPELLCARD BACKGROUND. Like I previously said, finding some random stock image can't be that hard on the internet : it's just a matter of handling search engines. Furthermore, the background being hidden behind a shadowy layer + the actual game and its bullets also means that it wouldn't be the priority as far as the player's attention goes, and therefore shouldn't need that much thought from ZUN : we have HUNDREDS of spellcards over the years, how many of their backgrounds do you distinctly recall by memory, without searching for them separately ? The notion that the search for such or such background would take a lot of time therefore seems too unrealistic to me, even moreso if its to be used for a spellcard ...
I would be willing to show much more understanding if the justification was that there weren't satisfactory stock images that could be used as textures for such or such stage background or 3D model, or even to avoid having to put extra work like for the Makai backgrounds brought up in the twitter threads, at which point using AI for getting more customized results would be much more efficient and understandable, but the reality of it is that IN PRACTICE, AI generation WAS USED FOR A SPELLCARD BACKGROUND (that you wouldn't even get to pay much attention to in-game), of all things : was there a serious need to use generative AI even ? How much time would having the AI model generate images over and over until something "satisfactory" came out realistically save, compared to just grabbing some stock jpeg and slapping it in game ? Cuz if its something minor but already requires AI assistance, then its a pretty unflattering look. Besides its not like AI is a guarantee of quality, if you look at the inconsistency plus lack of symmetry in the generated background.
Besides, the justification of AI use is honestly a matter of rhetoric anyway : there will always be arguments to make it sound either good or bad. For me and some others, it's the question of principle (+ where AI will go in the future of this series) that is the worry, not just "duUuUh AI Le bAd, EveRybOdy sAId soOoOO" (the legal, moral, ethic concerns that people bring up can't just be dismissed either). ZUN is not just some other doujin guy, he is the top dog as far as touhou doujin goes : there's the respect and admiration he gets from doing his one-man-team thingy + hard work for so long, plus the fact that wherever he publishes his work, fans can just put theirs as well, meaning that he pretty much determines what's gonna be normal or not : if ZUN gets confortable with AI, what about everyone else, does it become fair game too or will we need to wait until proper limits get chosen for AI use ? Can Tanaka from Tokyo just generate his TH doujin and say that its just a tool that helps his vision be brought to light quickly, then occupy a real physical space in Comiket to sell it ? Is the artistic merits of AI scripting + AI being the messianic tool that bring the art to the masses gonna become a valid talking point going forward ? These are obviously very extreme examples, but kicking the floodgates of AI open brings a lot of additional considerations and concerns, and clear boundaries are gonna be needed fast. Also it's not about doujin in general, it's about touhou doujin and what will fly here, going forward (Buncha stuff restricted in Touhou guidelines is OK for general doujin anyway).
There's definitely a no-AI purist attitude in play as an excacerbating factor in this AI debate here, but regardless it should also be said that the contributions of various creators is not only Touhou's lifeblood but also what made it what it is, and their involvement is not just because of appreciation of various aspects of the series but also ZUN, the creator : AI already puts artists on edge these day (you'll see the odd "not to be used for AI training" in artworks occasionally), due to reason that's pretty much talked about, not to mention the various people who increasingly beccome less favorable to AI due to various reasons.
At this point, I pretty much expect AI generated backgrounds to be a mainstay going forward, but I hope AI (specifically generative AI) and its acceptable role get properly defined boundaries soon-ish, and doesn't get to play a more prevalent role in the future. Anyway, realistically, I think that the reasonable expectation for AI going forward is that it won't to play a much bigger role in the creative process, but at the same time, the willingness to rely on AI has already made its mark, hope it doesn't encroach in the wrong places ...
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But I don't understand why many Western anti-AI decided to directly confront ZUN.
Did someone send him a package with something nasty or dangerous? Because THAT'S a direct confrontation, and definitely not acceptable. Voicing one's disagreement with methods used in a work's creation is a right that every fan should have. And doing that in a quantifiable way by officially available means at a place visible to everyone would be the best way to settle this matter.
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Thank you for your replies.
The japanese side who gets to interact with ZUN at various conventions might find him more personable cuz they get to interact with him at real events, so I'd get why they'd have discussions about him in a more understanding way, while most of those overseas (not just the west) don't even get to meet him but experience his work and appreciate all the things that have derived from it : he can pretty much be considered to be a symbol of something else that the regular corpos and entertainment industry doesn't provide rather than just an individual tbh, and the faith and goodwill that ZUN has acquired over the years is getting heavily tested cuz of this recent AI thingy.
Agree
Besides, there is something that should be reminded, the crux of this discussion, despite all these interviews and work time reduction talk : we have a very REAL use of AI now, and its for at least a SPELLCARD BACKGROUND.
Yes
was there a serious need to use generative AI even ? How much time would having the AI model generate images over and over until something "satisfactory" came out realistically save, compared to just grabbing some stock jpeg and slapping it in game ? Cuz if its something minor but already requires AI assistance, then its a pretty unflattering look.
I have seen some theories that there ZUN wanted to say something and that the final boss might be something like AI. But that is speculation.
For now we don't know the real reason behind that and why he used that for backgrounds. (ZUN could be just lazy or just wanted to try using AI openly)
ZUN is not just some other doujin guy, he is the top dog as far as touhou doujin goes : there's the respect and admiration he gets from doing his one-man-team thingy + hard work for so long, plus the fact that wherever he publishes his work, fans can just put theirs as well, meaning that he pretty much determines what's gonna be normal or not : if ZUN gets confortable with AI, what about everyone else, does it become fair game too or will we need to wait until proper limits get chosen for AI use ?
That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.
Can Tanaka from Tokyo just generate his TH doujin and say that its just a tool that helps his vision be brought to light quickly, then occupy a real physical space in Comiket to sell it ? Is the artistic merits of AI scripting + AI being the messianic tool that bring the art to the masses gonna become a valid talking point going forward ? These are obviously very extreme examples, but kicking the floodgates of AI open brings a lot of additional considerations and concerns, and clear boundaries are gonna be needed fast. Also it's not about doujin in general, it's about touhou doujin and what will fly here, going forward (Buncha stuff restricted in Touhou guidelines is OK for general doujin anyway).
For now (as always) it is regulated by loose doujin rules, as many events don't have clear stance about AI. But, for example, Nicodosai has their stance about AI (https://nicodosai.com/17th/etc/aiart).
By the way, there are already Touhou doujinshis for which creation AI was used.
AI already puts artists on edge these day (you'll see the odd "not to be used for AI training" in artworks occasionally), due to reason that's pretty much talked about, not to mention the various people who increasingly beccome less favorable to AI due to various reasons.
The AI progress cannot be stopped, so artists have to adapt. Increasing the value of things made by humans may somewhat improve the situation.
The "not to be used for AI training" thing has already been a topic to discuss/argue between "supporters" and Anti-AI.
At this point, I pretty much expect AI generated backgrounds to be a mainstay going forward, but I hope AI (specifically generative AI) and its acceptable role get properly defined boundaries soon-ish, and doesn't get to play a more prevalent role in the future. Anyway, realistically, I think that the reasonable expectation for AI going forward is that it won't to play a much bigger role in the creative process, but at the same time, the willingness to rely on AI has already made its mark, hope it doesn't encroach in the wrong places ...
For now it is hard to say what will happen next.
Did someone send him a package with something nasty or dangerous? Because THAT'S a direct confrontation, and definitely not acceptable. Voicing one's disagreement with methods used in a work's creation is a right that every fan should have. And doing that in a quantifiable way by officially available means at a place visible to everyone would be the best way to settle this matter.
Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.
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Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.
The most important thing to consider here is probably the scale at which displeasure is voiced. Doing only that should always be acceptable. For what it's worth, I do not believe anyone can or even has a right to demand that things not be done in a certain way. If ZUN feels AI is the way to go for his future works, then more power to him. However, people also have a right to voice their displeasure about this, at least unless they go overboard.
However, there are two dimensions to this whole AI-thing.
1) is the general use of it.
2) is the actual extent to which a creator does make use of it.
It's somewhat relevant here, so please let me state that I do not exactly like ZUN as a person, probably not even as a game designer. As a result of that, I also do not trust him to not use AI for more than just backgrounds, although this is a moot point - if any AI is involved at all, the game is dead to me. To be honest, I also wouldn't trust his word if he stated that, due to backlash, he has reconsidered his stance on AI. The only thing I would trust would be a genuine realization that this AI-stuff isn't all that hot. Not due to backlash, but because of actual self reflection. Due to that, I think all everyone should be doing is voicing displeasure without further escalation. Just make it clear there is an issue to some people so he is aware that the ball is in his court.
For now, the most prudent course of action is to simply wait for clarification now that it's been made clear that there is an issue here. Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner. Frankly speaking, I can only shake my head at the people who are genuinely begging ZUN not to go with AI - if you need to go that far, the guy and the series are not worth your time. Stick with what you love and call it a day. You still have the past thirty years of works to love and that is pretty much how I intend to go with it going forward. Touhou and its characters are a significant part of my life, but that doesn't mean that I am even remotely considering dropping my principles. If ZUN wants to use AI, that is his right, but I do not give a damn about him, any future games or works in general if that's where he ends up going.
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Thank you for your reply. I don't know if you read my post (https://shrinemaiden.com/index.php?topic=732.msg40516#msg40516) before that one, I recommend to read it too.
The most important thing to consider here is probably the scale at which displeasure is voiced. Doing only that should always be acceptable. For what it's worth, I do not believe anyone can or even has a right to demand that things not be done in a certain way. If ZUN feels AI is the way to go for his future works, then more power to him. However, people also have a right to voice their displeasure about this, at least unless they go overboard.
Not rude words about any topics are allowed. The problem is that mamy Westerners acted rudely (from Japanese fans side). That is why Japanese fans considered that as an attack on Priest.
As a result of that, I also do not trust him to not use AI for more than just backgrounds
Well, until there will be any proofs that ZUN used AI in other things I am not going to blame him about that. Not trusting is okay.
although this is a moot point - if any AI is involved at all, the game is dead to me. To be honest, I also wouldn't trust his word if he stated that, due to backlash, he has reconsidered his stance on AI. The only thing I would trust would be a genuine realization that this AI-stuff isn't all that hot.
Well, that is your opinion. The problem is that many fans don't think like that, they don't think that using an AI (especially only for backgrounds) is a bad thing. Since the demo's release many of "supporters" were saying "yes, we know" things (+ some of them were calling Anti-AI as something like anti-science, some political stuff and many other things). So it is important to explain why AI is a bad thing. I already gave hints about that before
Due to that, I think all everyone should be doing is voicing displeasure without further escalation.
Many Japanese fans already don't take that seriously. Ruw (or some other semi-officials) may read some of the complains you make (by the, it looks like (not sure) Ruw is "moderate" Anti-AI), but that is all.
For now, the most prudent course of action is to simply wait for clarification now that it's been made clear that there is an issue here. Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner.
For now, I think that he would continue using it.
Lacking that or if confirmation is made that he intends to keep using AI, I am fully prepared to drop the series and voice my displeasure in a rational manner.
Understandable.
Frankly speaking, I can only shake my head at the people who are genuinely begging ZUN not to go with AI - if you need to go that far, the guy and the series are not worth your time. Stick with what you love and call it a day. You still have the past thirty years of works to love and that is pretty much how I intend to go with it going forward.
Agree. (+ there are many great fangames)
Touhou and its characters are a significant part of my life, but that doesn't mean that I am even remotely considering dropping my principles. If ZUN wants to use AI, that is his right, but I do not give a damn about him, any future games or works in general if that's where he ends up going.
Well, understandable.
Again, thank you for your reply.
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That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.
There is a term in English for this: The Overton Window.
It is usually used these days in regard to the sliding scale of "how casually racist you can be in public" and unfortunately it is applying just as hard to AI too.
If one guy uses it for this really tiny thing, it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in a few people's minds. Then they push the border a little more over time and it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in more ways. Then you wake up one day and suddenly it's okay to half-generate whole works using AI.
Someone like ZUN using it for anything at all is HUGE. Since he is very well-recognized all over the world, people will conflate it to a huge pass to use it for more than it should ever be considered for, regardless of what ZUN's actual intention is. That's the actual damage this can cause.
This is further amplified by how shockingly many people seem to think this is okay. This is why most anti-AI people are so quick to condemn it, because this is one slippery slope that can easily landslide into catastrophic consequences for art as a medium, and i'm not just saying this from a Western perspective.
Look at Danbooru or Twitter/Bsky artists. How many of them in their bio just list "do not repost/use for AI training", or have to put watermarks on all their works going forward stating those things? I see it a lot on JP artists as well. This is how bad the problem has gotten. I've had JP artists that I followed completely delete their online presence recently presumably because of this, since they don't think it's worth it to try to be an artist in the wake of people scraping their works for AI.
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Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post (https://x.com/Ruw/status/1921904615693443238) saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.
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So ZUN might have actually been living under a rock for the last 2 years?
I guess he's more of a Facebook grandma than I thought lol
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Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post (https://x.com/Ruw/status/1921904615693443238) saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.
Reading the thread it sounds like this guy does not speak for ZUN or have deep contact, but exists squarely on the rules lawyer side of things, so one should not take his word as gospel for ZUN's intent - just to the extent of what his legal representative knows and doesn't know.
What's interesting though is that a Japanese account does make contact with him and give him a blog post laying out the problems with Adobe Firefly that I noted earlier in the thread, with him saying he'll "try to contact ZUN before release." So that is tangible progress. But man, it will be the most ZUN thing ever if he legitimately is not online enough to recognize the problems or even that there is drama happening.
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Openly doing things that Priest do not (may not) like, or saying rude or bad words about Priest may be viewed as confrontation by Japanese fans (especially if fans didn't like the thing too). (I won't talk about cases of saying threats (there were such cases)). This is not the first time such things happen, that is why I say that the tactic should be changed.
If you think that this should be handled differently, then how about you suggest an alternative way instead of just whining about it.
Actually, now that you mention it... Remember the first Touhou SSB clone fiasco? Western fans thought the way it was done would damage the relationship with the Japanese side. But ZUN and his team handled it calmly and professionally, and Japanese fans... just shrugged at it, as far as I know?
Seriously, the Western fandom really needs to shake off the blind reverence and overcautious approach to ZUN. He's a successful and mature family man who reaps huge benefits from us that any independent creator would dream of. Treating him like a mentally unstable teenager putting out their first works out there feels way more insulting than voicing disagreements with his decisions.
But sure, let's assume the worst case scenarios. What would be the consequences? I doubt ZUN hates making money out of thin air so he won't stop putting out games on Steam. At worst he would just come out and say "Sorry, I do what I want" and that would be that. As for Japanese fans, if something like that would make them blow up then that would indicate them already holding a lot of xenophobia, which would be a keg of powder just waiting there anyway. And that's the kind of problem that can be fixed only after getting exposed anyway.
But seriously, I feel this is making a mountain out of a molehill. I'd be surprised if my suggestion resulted in even 100 extra negative reviews. But at least it's something that can be demonstrated as a cause for dropping the game with some degree of commonality, unlike vague preference reasonings that would usually be the case.
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If one guy uses it for this really tiny thing, it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in a few people's minds. Then they push the border a little more over time and it becomes that little tiny bit more acceptable in more ways.
Well, this is how "good" and "bad" things are achieved.
Someone like ZUN using it for anything at all is HUGE. Since he is very well-recognized all over the world, people will conflate it to a huge pass to use it for more than it should ever be considered for, regardless of what ZUN's actual intention is.
I think you overestimate his influence outside Japan. The ones who wanted to use AI outside of Japan already used it, they don't need ZUN for that. In Japan it is more important, especially in doujin sphere.
This is further amplified by how shockingly many people seem to think this is okay. This is why most anti-AI people are so quick to condemn it, because this is one slippery slope that can easily landslide into catastrophic consequences for art as a medium, and i'm not just saying this from a Western perspective.
Well, people may have different opinions on this topic. For Japanese people AI is much more acceptable than in the West. And it looks like this topic lays in different sphere in Japan rather than in the West. And what bad consequences exactly? If you are about AI will kill human art, then Japanese Touhou fans will just say you that AI will make human-made art and later those ZUN's quotes.
How many of them in their bio just list "do not repost/use for AI training", or have to put watermarks on all their works going forward stating those things? I see it a lot on JP artists as well
(Most artists I watch regularly don't have them but I got your point). Many of them are "moderate" Anti-AI the others are "hardline" Anti-AI (and some of them left Touhou ). Those things are now a meme among Pro-AI fans and not taken seriously by them. I don't know the actual number of them, it is hard to say.
I've had JP artists that I followed completely delete their online presence recently presumably because of this, since they don't think it's worth it to try to be an artist in the wake of people scraping their works for AI.
I hope they do what they like. I don't know what other to say.
So ZUN might have actually been living under a rock for the last 2 years?
I guess he's more of a Facebook grandma than I thought lol
Well, he is not very active online, so sometimes he doesn't know about some current things. (but some things he knows pretty well)
Reading the thread it sounds like this guy does not speak for ZUN or have deep contact, but exists squarely on the rules lawyer side of things, so one should not take his word as gospel for ZUN's intent - just to the extent of what his legal representative knows and doesn't know.
What's interesting though is that a Japanese account does make contact with him and give him a blog post laying out the problems with Adobe Firefly that I noted earlier in the thread, with him saying he'll "try to contact ZUN before release." So that is tangible progress. But man, it will be the most ZUN thing ever if he legitimately is not online enough to recognize the problems or even that there is drama happening.
Well, he actually do more things than just legal things (for example he is responsible for gathering people to help ZUN in his booth on Reitaisais), he sometimes drinks beer with ZUN (sometimes on those radio streams) and other things.
He also posted a tweet that he forgot to add "Partial-AI use" for DLsite release, so he could know about AI from the beginning. Also from Ruw's words the AI thing was added on Steam by him. But at the same time he tried to defend ZUN from beginning.
If you think that this should be handled differently, then how about you suggest an alternative way instead of just whining about it.
One way I already showed in Touhou Cafe thread (but it might not work here).
About another way, well, the funny thing is that I am sure that many of you already know how to approach ZUN (and how other people approached him). Which thing ZUN loves very much (other than Touhou)? I think you got it. Can average fans approach him like this? Rarely, but yes. I think I gave enough details. I even gave a hint from which point it is a good idea to approach ZUN about this topic.
I really want to make an article about different ways how people tried to change things in Touhou, but I am currently stuck with another article for many months already.
Actually, now that you mention it... Remember the first Touhou SSB clone fiasco? Western fans thought the way it was done would damage the relationship with the Japanese side. But ZUN and his team handled it calmly and professionally, and Japanese fans... just shrugged at it, as far as I know?
Somewhat, yes. But that circle was not liked after that. If I remember correctly Japanese fans treated it like just another group of Westerners who did a thing that the Priest didn't like because they didn't know what is right or wrong (or something like that).
Seriously, the Western fandom really needs to shake off the blind reverence and overcautious approach to ZUN.
If I correctly understood what you meant then Westerners are already doing that. For Japanese fans these attacks are already too direct. What more serious do you offer then?
But sure, let's assume the worst case scenarios. What would be the consequences? I doubt ZUN hates making money out of thin air so he won't stop putting out games on Steam. At worst he would just come out and say "Sorry, I do what I want" and that would be that. As for Japanese fans, if something like that would make them blow up then that would indicate them already holding a lot of xenophobia, which would be a keg of powder just waiting there anyway. And that's the kind of problem that can be fixed only after getting exposed anyway.
In this case not xenophobia but just super gatekeeping (or something like that) against Anti-AI (what is already somewhat happening). About else agree.
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One way I already showed in Touhou Cafe thread (but it might not work here).
About another way, well, the funny thing is that I am sure that many of you already know how to approach ZUN (and how other people approached him). Which thing ZUN loves very much (other than Touhou)? I think you got it. Can average fans approach him like this? Rarely, but yes. I think I gave enough details. I even gave a hint from which point it is a good idea to approach ZUN about this topic.
Goodness, can you stop being coy and say your point loud and clear? Nobody wants to comb through an off-topic wall of text. If you mean approaching him personally then yeah, that's both unfeasible and inappropriate. A single person trying to present this point of view would definitely be viewed pretty weird. So no, that's not a viable alternative.
Plus again, I'm not sure how many people really care about the matter that much. Individually they tend to get mobbed by more devout Touhou fans, from what I see in other places. The way I suggested can show that in a consolidated and quantifiable way compared to how many people are okay to go with the flow. And if someone takes offense over the intended way to give feedback being used then, well, welcome to the real world.
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Again, I don't see how "being a disruptive westerner making as big a stink as possible to get their way" is going to have the intended effect, let alone how it is "part of the real world." While I don't really agree with this Japanese view of AI (and I'll note that my experience shows as diverse a set of beliefs as here in the west), understanding the prevailing views that influence ZUN's creative decision is valuable, as imo the intent here is at least as important as the usage itself.
If this is all as we think it is, then at the very least, ZUN has not become some pro-AI person who doesn't care about art or artists, nor did he intend that in his usage of it. While intention is not everything and I hope he sees the light and discontinues use of it in the future, I doubt these flights of fancy of him outsourcing game design to AI are going to happen. Like any person ZUN's views have evolved with time, and for all the decades he has proven to be a good person, I think one should approach voicing our opinions in good faith. To do otherwise I think is much more out of step with reality and the current scenario.
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Goodness. I'm not saying everyone should do this out of nowhere. I'm not suggesting spamming him with angry emails or spreading hashtags on social media to cancel him. I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.
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I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.
If this was the intent behind your suggestion then it might have been good to emphasise THIS point in the first place, as your original statement rather read as a tad more aggressive.
I'm moreso concerned about the other issue pertaining to the recent copyright takedowns issued by ZUN's lawyer rather than this though.
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What Vanyk misses the point is that it isn't just "westerners" who were "attacking the priest", whatever that means.
If you get "attacked" by Japanese Touhou fans over disagreeing their god's stance on a controversy caused by said "god" while having vulgars in your argument. Then it's fanboyism 101 than a entire group, since even the Japanese side of things are also "attacking the priest", it's true because I've been here. Not to mention that Twitter is worthless to begin with.
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And what bad consequences exactly?
It's a more than just "AI art will get so good that it can just replicate human-made art". As someone who has family in the art sector and has to somewhat keep in touch of that side of the internet, it's a big burnout effect.
These artists won't even feel like it's worth it to keep going using traditional methods, even for fun, whether it be that AI could just do it better and/or someone will just steal their art anyway. Some of these people do it as a major income source.
This would cause a massive dip in knowledge (brain drain) in the art sector internationally, and discourage any future artists wanting to get into the medium for the foreseeable future, unless they were willing to sell out to AI as well.
There's also the potential outcome that no real new art comes out, and everything is just stuck on the same dataset it's been generating off of for the next few decades since AI art gets accepted as the new standard for what people should be doing.
Now perhaps the pro-AI people are right all along. Maybe this is what people actually want and people shouldn't be so hung up on how "art" is generated and what means were used to create it. A case could be made that using a line tool in a paint program is having AI draw a perfect straight line for you that most people realistically can't do with pure mouse control. I'm not here to debate that conundrum.
I just know that from my point of view, if this continues, "artists" in the future would mostly just turn into people who run scripts on other people's work, have some looks at the result until they decide "yeah that looks good enough" and consider it done. There would probably be a subset of people who only run such scripts off their own works or free resource images, but the numbers across the board would increase, and the percentage of human input and creativity across the board would start to go down the toilet.
I know you mentioned that I might have overestimated ZUN's reach outside Japan, but for every time I think Touhou is just about done since it's no longer the only franchise on the market with a mostly-female cast in the general internet sphere, I am pleasantly surprised.
Once upon a time, a massive number of us fans were concentrated in the old version of this forum, and this very forum was the one responsible for his first trip to the states at AWA. Most of them are no longer here, but they're still out there somewhere, and most everyone else from that time, along with plenty of new blood still making Touhou content or even inserting references here and there. It may not be as much recognition as his name has in Japan, but i'm willing to bet it's at least hundreds of thousands of people across the globe, and that's no small number of people that value or judge the man behind something that's a part of their lives.
If this was the intent behind your suggestion then it might have been good to emphasise THIS point in the first place, as your original statement rather read as a tad more aggressive.
I am glad I wasn't the only person who was thinking this.
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To add on to Chirei's point, something that may not be clear for someone on the Japanese side of the Internet is the sheer level of open contempt many pro-AI people have for artists and writers. There are many cases of people on twitter and related sites going up to artists and boasting that they have fed their art into AI generators to mock their efforts, and recently the largest English language fanfic site, AO3, had its entire database scraped illegally for AI training. It is not just a mere worry that artists have, but something that is regularly directed at them by proponents of AI as they steal and mock their hard work.
For a number of these people, there is what can only be described as an open disdain for artists and the creative process, and this extends all the way to the creators of these AI programs, who stand to profit the most from this mindset. And whether Adobe Firefly is "clean" or not, the way that it engaged in a "take first, ask later" approach to training from its user base shows they are just as willing to profit from the work of artists while simultaneously pushing them out of the market, as said artists are paid only a fraction of what they made before the advent of AI and now struggle to make a living.
I do not know how much this sort of thing happens on the Japanese side of things, but the amount of artists who expressly forbid training off their art, as well as the pro-AI people you say mock such restrictions suggest it isn't all that different over there, if perhaps more subtle and less openly stated. But I hope you understand why AI is so contentious in the west, and why people are in such dismay to see ZUN use it. Here, the use of AI is often seen as a statement, and many people have seen this the same way, whether or not that is what ZUN intended.
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That is why many pro-AI fans are happy: if ZUN uses it then it is a normal thing to use it in doujin. The fact that ZUN uses it can make AI much more acceptable and the number of circles which uses AI can increase.
Wow. Barely half a week in, and pro-AI is already a valid mainstream stance to take ? That's crazy to me. The fact that there are debates about this right now is proof enough that it's not something normal or easily acceptable (I even heard that there are discussions in the Chinese sphere too, meaning it's a generalized thing, not just a west-only concern). We've already gone from "it's just for backgrounds", to "AI helps for the workload", to "AI is the future & opposing AI is anti-science". See how fast the snowball grows ? And with pro-AI opinions getting normalized, I wouldn't be so surprised by AI based fanworks growing in number too ... (I've seen a single circle that has explicitely said that it makes AI stuff exclusively and upload Touhou material that is 100% AI generated, from lyrics to background pictures on youtube, which is quite unique and honest in its AI use, but I'd rather not see that as the standard).
We're all Touhou fans here, and we're all familiar with fanworks and small creators, artists & circles : it should be normal to be understanding & sympathetic of their concerns, especially about AI : yet, somehow, a pro-AI stance is already normal ? I also don't see any reason why seeing pro-AI as the new normal should be the correct stance just because some japanese fans feel that way, can't the overseas community have their own opinions as well or what ? Honestly, my view on this is that these suspicious pro-AI guys of uncertain size are primarily ZUN defenders who aligned themselves with AI because ZUN made use of it : if the main guy magically revert course, that line of thought is gonna be gone. I hope that ZUN will update his guidelines with AI in mind, not as a result of this controversy, but in response to AI's rise. I will still follow those dusty old stinky human artists and circles regardless, and possible change in fanworks remain incertain right now, but I wouldn't trust the regular guy to be more responsible nor reserved about AI use when compared to ZUN.
Also I don't wanna help further steer this discussion towards the usual AI vs artists (I believe it has been down elsewhere too), so I'll just say one thing :
The AI progress cannot be stopped, so artists have to adapt. Increasing the value of things made by humans may somewhat improve the situation.
The ZUN quote about AI's rise making human works more valuable is his opinion and point of view, not a gospel truth. But for those who are not familiar with all the AI debate, AI is this cool new thing to interact with for the normies, and a bandwagon of high potential to get in for the corporates : once AI based works of ever increasing quality keep pouring out, they'll be viewed as just another product to chose from, on the same category as whatever the outdated stinky old humans can make. Far superior output, ever increasing quality as the technology gets improved, and probably pricing too : how would the regular creator compete ? He'll be outclassed in every way. Will the regular people necessarily consider the label "No AI involved" when they choose what they want ? There's no guarantee anywhere. The "No AI" thingy will just work as an added value that works for people who are sympathetic to the hard work of creators, but for those who only care about high output of literally whatever, I don't believe the human touch will mean much. There's just gonna be unfair competition, the solution toward which is taking part in AI use too ...
I'm just suggesting for people who would drop the game to at least leave a reason why. Lamenting if the games keep going that way after not even trying to do a thing about it would feel way more painful.
Violet Detector's gotta be the ZUN game that's received the least appreciation and has less polish than your average touhou game, and the reuse of previous attack patterns is commonly used as a point of contention for VD. However, 100thBM kinda does a bit of that as well, so I don't think such or such criticism on Steam is gonna reach ZUN nor get real attention. Heck, I don't even think he reads the reviews in all of his games, even less so if they're in a bunch of different languages. I think that the only thing forced criticisms that's not even related to the games is gonna achieve is just to spread negativity and lower the quality of the discourse overall, and achieve nothing in the long term. I think that keeping the current conversation alive is the best course of action, in hope for it to reach more and more people closer to ZUN, like Ruw.
Ruw (ZUN's lawyer) made a post (https://x.com/Ruw/status/1921904615693443238) saying that ZUN probably didn't realize that usage of AI causes controversy.
Honestly, this to me is the first tangible result of this anti-AI outcry we (not just us here but elsewhere too) have got going on. Ruw can be a bit aggro and less nuanced in his various approaches apparently, and I hope he'll have that attitude and go bring up the various AI related concerns to ZUN.