Ys Mafia (Current Phase: Game Over!)

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Votecount
Fabloo (3): NucleusWaffles, Tom, Yaersulf
meow56 (2): BigBangMeteor, Polaris
Tom (2): raikaria, Daiya
Polaris (1): NekoNekoRex
NekoNekoRex (1): PX
Disquieted (1): zwerdjib
Yaersulf (1): Fabloo
BigBangMeteor (0):
Bardiche (0):
raikaria (0):
PX (0):
Daiya (0):
NucleusWaffles (0):
zwerdjib (0):
Serela (0):

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 to lynch!
Not voting: meow56, banana spritzee, Serela

Time until day phase ends: [ Expired ]

[Tom]

Also looks like the Fabloo wagon lost its speed~
##Unvote
##Vote meow56

[Disquieted]

What in the heck just happened.

[Disquieted]

I'll figure this out later. Have some takes while I keep sleeping, real words can come later.

Lynching claimed masons is stupid. Stop it. Stop saying third party as well. If you want to talk about third party, wait a night. Probably a joke. Probably scum motivated. Good meme either way. Appreciate it.

Daiya's vote on Tom is really strange and I don't get it.

Yaersulf isn't really doing himself any favours still.

Meow is a good vote and I'd vote except I just really want breathing room for him to come back.

I'm staying here. NNR has cute ears.

[raikaria]

Also, with Bardiche subbing out it makes most of that pointless so without further ado:

##Vote: Raikaria

Semilurking through the beginning of the day and has been quite vague about their intentions and alignments

Please back up your claims with hard evidence, I included 3 links in my last post.  Everything else is just words

##Unvote
##Vote Polaris

Throwing out two OMGUS votes after I'm already voting you largely for doing that dosen't help my opinion of you; Tom. I'm aware you swapped voetes to someone who actually wasn't voting you shortly after, but that vote had little~no reasoning.

And saying I've been unclear about my opinions isn't really true. I've explained why I voted for you quite thoroughly I believe. I've stated I dislike giving out townreads due to the fact they paint targets on people's backs for scum to target. I've not been too active, but I've explained why. I'm working late shifts. I leave to go to work. I come back and it's time for sleep.

---

I'm not really sure where this Fabloo wagon is coming from? In fact I'm finding it rather concerning when there's posts like this:

Welp, Fabloo is confirmed scum, or at least certainly not town.

Cut by 3

AND THEN PX AND FABLOO CLAIM MASONS. ALRIGHT

And to be honest, pretty much everything after that claim makes me want to bash my head against the edge of my desk repeatedly and hard.

I simultaneously want to lynch everyone who's still voting the claimed masons because that's a stupidly anti-town stance to be taking. Throwing out theories such as x2 3rd party in a 15p game is rather extreme too.

Although simultaneously; bringing up role flavors [which cannot be proved in any way, shape or form and rely on people having knowledge of the flavor in the first place] is a little silly. If that was the case, we should all claim our flavor and whoever the villains in Ys are are the scum! Good chance that would work, seeing as I'd wager the majority of us have no clue about Ys. I know I don't.

The posts I highlighted in my previous post; and the above, as well as this one:

Also looks like the Fabloo wagon lost its speed~
##Unvote
##Vote meow56

[A wagonhop to the 2nd largest wagon; absolutely no reasoning given] make me want to continue pushing Tom. The newbie card only gets one so far.

And man Page 16 in it's entirety is basically drivel. Except there are a few things I think are worth pointing out:

My mouth literally went agape reading this. Are you tone deaf? I'm not hunting scum? Are you blind? I've put out the most content and I shouldn't have three pages ago. Meanwhile you've sat on me all indignant telling me all the things I'm not doing. I've done too much in my opinion. I've never been so unsettled in my life. Nor disrespected.

But Polaris isn't sitting on you. He's voting meow.

And then there's this post NNR quotes:

I'm down with the idea of lynching Fabloo if that's what we're doing, but personally I'd prefer to wait day or two and see if he's actually just full of hot air or actually has been formulating some grand idea. As rude as it'd be I wouldn't mind a Banana lynch because I still feel like that could give us some possible info on nucleus (and a bunch of other people seeing as nearly everyone weighed in on Bardiche.)

I find this stance strange. It comes across to me like 'I'm fine riding this wagon! But I don't really want this wagon!'. It comes across as him trying to clean his hands of a mislynch before it actually happens. There's more than enough time if he actually wants to not lynch Fabloo for him to make up a new case and actually try and push it.

In fact in general I don't like Yaersulf's pushing on Fabloo. While I also don't like Fabloo's blatent OMGUS switch onto him, I don't really like Yaersulf's reasons for voting Fabloo, or the fact he was the 5th person on the wagon this early, combined with the above.

I still really don't like Tom's content. But I feel this is more topical and quite bad too.

##Unvote
##Vote: Yaersulf

[raikaria]

Oh yeah I should probably mention that while I'm not impressed by Fabloo [especially in regards to his last showing] I still think unless proven otherwise by a power role we should avoid lynching the mason claims tonight.

[Tom]

I've little to no idea how to play so I've just counterattacked those who voted me and trusted wagons led by more experienced players.  The majority of strategy I've found involves analyzing votes so I'm just trying to survive the first day so I can get to that stage.  I switched off Fabloo since he claimed mason and even a newb like me knows that masons are some of our town PRs (though won't claiming mason get you NK'd instead of lynched?).  If they turn out not to be masons then I'd me more than happy to switch my vote back.

[NekoNekoRex]

Are you seriously voting me entirely because of my ears

[NekoNekoRex]

This fire trucking game

[NekoNekoRex]

Next you're going to say my tail is a scumtell too

[NekoNekoRex]

I dont like any of these wagons and would still like to push BBM or Polaris

[Disquieted]

##Unvote
##Vote: Polaris

[Yaersulf]

To clarify the whole Fabloo thing as I saw it. I agreed that Fabloo being cagey was suspicious, then Fabloo claimed a role that meant he knew my role (not necessarily true that that's what he claimed? but it's what I read it to mean at the time) then immediately voted me. Thinking what I did I saw that as him lying about being pro-town. Now I'm not sure exactly what it means, I've been having to look up some these terms like masons and strawberries.

As far as I can tell it means that they're both town and know for a fact that each other are town? Except from what they've said there's something extra on top of that? Which Fabloo still hasn't really explained at all.

Anyway, I'ma sleep now.

[Disquieted]

I decided to reread what just happened in the last few pages instead of kinda just skimming it.

Hm.

Um.

Yeah.

Alright.

I hope that doesn't start up again.

Alright. Lemme sort a bit.

[Disquieted]

So, let's talk so we get kind of away from the mess. Maybe a bit more general than normal, get away from the dumb topics at hand. Let's talk very general and what I should've started with at the very beginning, take a breather, move away from actually playing the game. I should've started with this cause this is very much a mafia primer, and clearly we have a lot of new players in this game, so let's talk about playing mafia.

Scumhunting's a very messy affair. When you're trying to find mafia in a game, you need to think about who or what is mafia indicative. That's pretty hard because you're working with human beings. Humans are dumb. Humans aren't efficient. Humans are silly.

Probably the biggest misconception about mafia is to be mafia, you have to trip up. As mafia, the general thought is that you're mafia, so you have to be wild, be sneaky, change your positions, and be very naughty and not play to the town's win condition a lot of the time. In fact, that's not what a very traditional mafia player does. The people who trip up the most, for no reason at all, are town members.

Someone who plays mafia doesn't get fancy unless they're battle-hardened. The main concept of mafia is that you're trying to emulate your town game as best you can to flow under suspicion, and then make those percentage moments to manipulate people. And the quite frank point of mafia is that you don't have to find those percentage moments necessarily and it's more trouble than it's worth, cause finding the difference between town and mafia tripping up is not about that they trip up, 

No, the better thing to do is to find the human weakness. Which is that most people don't know how to emulate their town game. Cause break it down. Out of 100% of people, 20% of them don't have a concept of self. A further 20% of them have a concept of self and know how they play as town, but they don't really know how to reach that level when they read their role PM and see red. The rest of those people think they know themselves and try to reach that area, but they fall short. That's all you need to do.

Mafia isn't a game about debating points over a table. This isn't a debate forum. Mafia is a game about good faith and intentions, not debating the finer points of the sky. That inherently makes it easier, cause some facts can be changed, like the price of gold, the world revolving around the sun, and the Black Death. But what you can't change is a person's alignment and what they see on their role PM, and once you see that, you know you're wrong. And that's a good puzzle answer.

You know what belongs in a debate? How to play mafia. Defining how to play mafia well is a matter of opinion. A human being and the faith of a human being can't be described by a subset of internal rules. You can't say how someone who sees their role PM should always act in a certain way, you can't be prescriptive about the matter. For every person that you find a correct way to read them on, you'll apply to another person and find it doesn't really work out. This is why some very vaunted players will talk about "player meta" and "how to read particular people" but even individual people can surprise other individual people. So you play mafia for a long time and you realise that anything you learn about reading someone in a game doesn't really work cause trying to figure out good faith depends on the human condition. And that is malleable and ever-changing. It's also why mafia is never a solved game.

So when you want to start from square one in a game, your first question should not be "Is this person playing mafia well"? Your first question should be "Does this person want to be here, and are they interested in helping me in good faith?"

When you formulate a read, the number one thing you need to do is examine the logical view you have. Cause here's the thing, the problem with people is that they play very prescriptively and it doesn't necessarily lead them well. In fact they play very prescriptively, assume other people play using the same prescriptions, and not only does that hamper their own scumgame, it also hampers the way they read other people. What you kind of need to do is talk over your logic to yourself and make sure that logical gap at least feels good to you, and remember that everything is relative. Cause people have their own internal rules about mafia and how it works but they never really check their own assumptions and that's the best way to think about mafia.

Let's talk about the simplest scumread that you could make that works all the time, and that's somebody claiming scum. This probably sounds very bland, but given that it's one of the only truisms in mafia (and may not even be if people are getting really fancy!) it's probably the best place to start.

The line of thought goes like this.

This person claimed scum. Why did this person claim scum? He claimed scum because he is scum. Why would we he do that? I don't know, but town have no reason to lie about this, so he is scum.

Smooth. Simple. Easy.

Let's take a simple rule of thumb that people get hung up on a lot. People say that the third person on a wagon is scum a lot of the time. Why? Let's go with the current third vote on the wagon, which is Yaersulf.

Why is Yaersulf scum because of this? Because.... from experience there's scum on the third person on a wagon. Logically as well, scum try to give credence to a wagon, they don't drive it cause they want to remain out of the spotlight and they don't hammer it because people look that way when they want to find someone to blame. Is there any reason a town member ends up being the third town on a wagon? Well, why not? Is there a rule that all town members must avoid being the third vote on a wagon? Is there some sort of prescriptive concept that town must avoid being on the third vote?

That's the sort of thing I think about. It generally involves something that's interesting -> is that a scummy action -> is that a towny action -> which one is more likely? And the big thing is, there isn't a 100% answer to a single read, cause reads can be flawed, and town don't have all the answers and can make mistakes - that might not even be mistakes unless you've actually pulled in someone else's alignment into it.

Obviously this is a lot of words and I don't have a read that Yaersulf is scum because he's the third vote on Fabloo, that would be ridiculous by my standards and given what I've written you definitely expect better of me. But I'm human and stupid.

The best part of mafia I think is this though. Doing this sort of thing means you help everyone else to read you. And the best part of this is that if even if you do something stupid and wrong, if you're "out there" and you look like a fool, at least you're genuine, and as it turns out, being genuine helps in this game.

Anyways. I hope that helped and maybe gets some people's minds off things. I didn't want this to be a callout and if you thought it was I apologise. It just felt like a good idea to talk about given what's been going on, something that doesn't talk about people in this game. Cause I haven't given an actual read on this post and I'm not as good as Niektory and this is my definition of fluff.

Anyways. This is my traditional trying to find a lead-in to get myself comfortable in the thread, let me find my reads.

[BigBangMeteor]

I keep waking up later and later every day and having less time for morning mafia gg

@NNR: Talking about the topic du jour is okay if you think there's actually scum there or if you're simultaneously talking about other stuff. It's not ok if you're doing that instead of talking to or about your scumreads. It's easy to make competent posts questioning the play of the most inexperienced player in the game. But if meow doesn't think they're scum why is that the only thing he's doing?

Sadly I don't think you would be ballsy enough to hard defend meow and hail mary vote me as scum if you're his buddy. And if you're scum but meow isn't I also don't think it makes sense for you to hard defend meow since it would be advantageous to push a lynch on someone who's clearly a better player than like fabloo or Tom.

Frustrating that meow is still not around. Out of time to read yaersulf atm, will have to wait for lunch. I guess I will also read Polaris? He's solidly in the "posting frequently and well but has not made any specific towntells" area for me. I don't really understand the votes against him so I guess I have to read those too.

it all went downhill when he changed his avatar from the chad red (cute, confident, approachable, actual harem protagonist) to the virgin ruby (a super loser, does pokemon contests, probably can't even get a date)

:'( he doesn't need a harem he already has a badass girlfriend

[zwerdjib]

So, let's talk so we get kind of away from the mess. Maybe a bit more general than normal, get away from the dumb topics at hand. Let's talk very general and what I should've started with at the very beginning, take a breather, move away from actually playing the game. I should've started with this cause this is very much a mafia primer, and clearly we have a lot of new players in this game, so let's talk about playing mafia.

Scumhunting's a very messy affair. When you're trying to find mafia in a game, you need to think about who or what is mafia indicative. That's pretty hard because you're working with human beings. Humans are dumb. Humans aren't efficient. Humans are silly.

Probably the biggest misconception about mafia is to be mafia, you have to trip up. As mafia, the general thought is that you're mafia, so you have to be wild, be sneaky, change your positions, and be very naughty and not play to the town's win condition a lot of the time. In fact, that's not what a very traditional mafia player does. The people who trip up the most, for no reason at all, are town members.

Someone who plays mafia doesn't get fancy unless they're battle-hardened. The main concept of mafia is that you're trying to emulate your town game as best you can to flow under suspicion, and then make those percentage moments to manipulate people. And the quite frank point of mafia is that you don't have to find those percentage moments necessarily and it's more trouble than it's worth, cause finding the difference between town and mafia tripping up is not about that they trip up, 

No, the better thing to do is to find the human weakness. Which is that most people don't know how to emulate their town game. Cause break it down. Out of 100% of people, 20% of them don't have a concept of self. A further 20% of them have a concept of self and know how they play as town, but they don't really know how to reach that level when they read their role PM and see red. The rest of those people think they know themselves and try to reach that area, but they fall short. That's all you need to do.

Mafia isn't a game about debating points over a table. This isn't a debate forum. Mafia is a game about good faith and intentions, not debating the finer points of the sky. That inherently makes it easier, cause some facts can be changed, like the price of gold, the world revolving around the sun, and the Black Death. But what you can't change is a person's alignment and what they see on their role PM, and once you see that, you know you're wrong. And that's a good puzzle answer.

You know what belongs in a debate? How to play mafia. Defining how to play mafia well is a matter of opinion. A human being and the faith of a human being can't be described by a subset of internal rules. You can't say how someone who sees their role PM should always act in a certain way, you can't be prescriptive about the matter. For every person that you find a correct way to read them on, you'll apply to another person and find it doesn't really work out. This is why some very vaunted players will talk about "player meta" and "how to read particular people" but even individual people can surprise other individual people. So you play mafia for a long time and you realise that anything you learn about reading someone in a game doesn't really work cause trying to figure out good faith depends on the human condition. And that is malleable and ever-changing. It's also why mafia is never a solved game.

So when you want to start from square one in a game, your first question should not be "Is this person playing mafia well"? Your first question should be "Does this person want to be here, and are they interested in helping me in good faith?"

When you formulate a read, the number one thing you need to do is examine the logical view you have. Cause here's the thing, the problem with people is that they play very prescriptively and it doesn't necessarily lead them well. In fact they play very prescriptively, assume other people play using the same prescriptions, and not only does that hamper their own scumgame, it also hampers the way they read other people. What you kind of need to do is talk over your logic to yourself and make sure that logical gap at least feels good to you, and remember that everything is relative. Cause people have their own internal rules about mafia and how it works but they never really check their own assumptions and that's the best way to think about mafia.

Let's talk about the simplest scumread that you could make that works all the time, and that's somebody claiming scum. This probably sounds very bland, but given that it's one of the only truisms in mafia (and may not even be if people are getting really fancy!) it's probably the best place to start.

The line of thought goes like this.

This person claimed scum. Why did this person claim scum? He claimed scum because he is scum. Why would we he do that? I don't know, but town have no reason to lie about this, so he is scum.

Smooth. Simple. Easy.

Let's take a simple rule of thumb that people get hung up on a lot. People say that the third person on a wagon is scum a lot of the time. Why? Let's go with the current third vote on the wagon, which is Yaersulf.

Why is Yaersulf scum because of this? Because.... from experience there's scum on the third person on a wagon. Logically as well, scum try to give credence to a wagon, they don't drive it cause they want to remain out of the spotlight and they don't hammer it because people look that way when they want to find someone to blame. Is there any reason a town member ends up being the third town on a wagon? Well, why not? Is there a rule that all town members must avoid being the third vote on a wagon? Is there some sort of prescriptive concept that town must avoid being on the third vote?

That's the sort of thing I think about. It generally involves something that's interesting -> is that a scummy action -> is that a towny action -> which one is more likely? And the big thing is, there isn't a 100% answer to a single read, cause reads can be flawed, and town don't have all the answers and can make mistakes - that might not even be mistakes unless you've actually pulled in someone else's alignment into it.

Obviously this is a lot of words and I don't have a read that Yaersulf is scum because he's the third vote on Fabloo, that would be ridiculous by my standards and given what I've written you definitely expect better of me. But I'm human and stupid.

The best part of mafia I think is this though. Doing this sort of thing means you help everyone else to read you. And the best part of this is that if even if you do something stupid and wrong, if you're "out there" and you look like a fool, at least you're genuine, and as it turns out, being genuine helps in this game.

Anyways. I hope that helped and maybe gets some people's minds off things. I didn't want this to be a callout and if you thought it was I apologise. It just felt like a good idea to talk about given what's been going on, something that doesn't talk about people in this game. Cause I haven't given an actual read on this post and I'm not as good as Niektory and this is my definition of fluff.

Anyways. This is my traditional trying to find a lead-in to get myself comfortable in the thread, let me find my reads.

welcome back, smarty

[Daiya]

wallposts make my life a living hell but thanks, sb. that was genuinely helpful

[zwerdjib]

i also forgot to

##unvote
##vote polaris

last night

i think today we may min-max towniness and info for these wagons, right? thats the direction i wanna go and fmpov polaris interactions havent been the most... uh... townie

[Daiya]

still writing, but can you elaborate on that? i do believe that his reactions to things feel oddly theatrical, but i'm still having a hard time getting a proper read on him

[Disquieted]

Here's a rough view of where I'm at.

PX
Fabloo

I don't want to deal with this currently, they're both masons, they're behaving like they're masons - Fabloo's attitude isn't uncommon at all for masons even if they didn't want it to be like that. Probably don't want to deal with this ever.

Tom

I'm not sure why this is an issue. If someone that's new to mafia can replicate this exact newbie-speaking pattern and actually genuinely expressing interest in the game, I'd be surprised. Like you can argue about the tenets of how he's playing mafia but you're not really helping him play... mafia? And trying to expect that he knows how to play mafia and applying that assumption seems kind of weak.

When I talk about good faith, I sit in Tom's shoes, and ask, is it believable that as town he doesn't know what to do so he'll sit and reactively hit every vote that goes at him? And I say, yes, and it's less believable if he's scum because he's writing these posts from the basis that he has a town role PM. Maybe he already has that mindset in mind as scum, but we're making a lot of assumptions here that may not be necessary for Day 1.

BigBangMeteor

I don't really have a problem with BBM this game, I don't think anyone short of NNR does, and like I said, the mafia are going to nightkill him tonight cause of it and we don't really need to have this conversation. It takes a lot of effort to describe why I feel OK about BBM instead of giving him the free volume pass, that requires me to read his posts and actually comment on them, so I'll just leave the very vague "he feels genuine" and know nobody will really care to argue with me on this point, except NNR. I guess I'll cut my losses here and see if he wants to fight me over it, and I'll grumble if he does and see if I can hit something in BBM's posting that I exactly like.

Zwerdjib
Serela
raikaria

I don't really know how to rank these people. Raikaria gets a severe bump-up for talking about his own role flavour so candidly, and zwerdjib gets a bump-up for supposedly actually caring about mafia this time and showing it, though I'm very prepared to drop it in the next few days cause I don't really think he can keep it up if he's scum.

All three players are very unique, I don't know how how they're going to play as scum (in zwerdjib's case I don't know how to differentiate his town and scum game really), and on balance I'm very tempted to read them town just for being themselves and not awkward. That's probably wrong, and we'll deal with it eventually. But shrug.

NucleusWaffles

I don't really know how to feel about NucleusWaffles. The claim is good I guess, not out of the range of being coached to say, but that just means it's a possibility, not the most likely one. Nucleus is, um, surprisingly perceptive, to put it in a way, and kind of exists in the thread and has interesting opinions. I am gently leaning town on um, him? But I didn't actually like his opening a lot and while his posts so far have left me mild, it just makes me think of this overactive trying to be townie sort. Maybe that's just true and he's townie. Who knows.

Daiya

I have mild concerns about Daiya insofar in that I haven't deeply read many of his posts cause I thought they sounded good, and he suddenly ends on Tom for some reason. I don't really want to go into depth as to why I feel like this is a problem, but what I'm considering of Daiya is that I don't really see this vote coming from him and it's mildly convenient. But who knows. He should've been higher and I wanted to low effort him into Day 2 and let him have fun.

NekoNekoRex

I'm not dropping him any lower than this cause he's been kind. I don't think he's very towny, but I'm certainly not going to press this today and let this thread devolve into more than it is. Ask me later, it's just a mild feeling given his position in the game and it's not important right now.

Banana Spritzee

I refuse to read this until Banana Spritzee comes in and posts again. You might remember my opinion on Bardiche, but I refuse to let power flaker Banana Spritzee off with a free town pass. Get in the thread.

Yaersulf

Yaersulf is playing, so I don't want to stress any more than I have to. But Yaersulf hasn't been overall great or easily townreadable. The only reason I could even like Yaersulf right now is cause of what's going on with his thoughts with regards to Fabloo and I don't really... buy that internally.

Who knows, kind of undecided and this is more of a endsort than anything else.

meow56

The good points about meow56: he's got good thoughts and questions.

The bad points about meow56: he doesn't follow them up. I don't know what he's getting from his questions, I don't know who he wants or who he's pushing. All I get are these questions, and a TTS list, but I'm finding it hard to correlate the two together? Like let's talk a bit and see if I'm not barking up the wrong tree here.

I... don't know what typing speed has to do with anything. But regarding the Bardiche wagon, I'm not exactly sure where it came from? I don't think Tom nor Yaersulf had exceptional reasons for voting him: Tom voted him as OMGUS, and Yaersulf voted him for "being quick to point fingers" which doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering the two posts he had made at the time were "Random Vote" and "Defend Random Vote".

BBM: https://shrinemaiden.com/index.php?topic=123.msg4441#msg4441

Gonna assemble a TTS list, be back soonish.

(also, I personally prefer "meow56" even at the start of a sentence. "Meow56" just looks kinda weird to me.)

re: Disquieted, I think I just liked the fact he wrote a TTS list.

Tom, whose vote are calling "not serious"? And what exactly was Bardiche diverting attention from? If I recall correctly, he wasn't under any pressure until he serious voted you.

And one more thing. You've given us two extra scumreads, but do you have any townreads?

Cause like maybe I'm being nitpicky but meow56 here is asking about Tom. Yes?

OK, I should just post the list.

Bardiche
Daiya
raikaria
Polaris
BigBangMeteor
Tom
Disquieted

Yaersulf
zwerdjib
NucleusWaffles
NekoNekoRex
Serela

Fabloo
PX

But why is he in a townlist? I don't know how to express this but it's a strange way to treat a townread. You know?

Maybe this is an easy Day 1 lynch, but Day 1 is always a bit wack anyways, sorry.

Polaris

I've stated my thoughts. They haven't changed. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to budge on this read, we'll talk about this later cause if Polaris is town he's genuinely tilted about something stupid right now and he doesn't need to come back a stupid restating of a case and dredging up how I feel about how he treated that whole mess. Formulate your own opinions nerds.

[Daiya]

Really now?  I've been pointing at Scum!Bard the entire first day how can you even *think* of claiming I'm not hunting scum?
His low quality posts, filled with a lot of words that obscure the point and his renentless attack on me started over some technicality of the game concerning lurkers.  He is using me as a scapegoat for his low quality posts and avoid actually scumhunting anyone else.

As for my opinions on others, PX raises a little concern with some low quality posts and raikaria has been quite passive and semi lurking.

you mean...the blatant. and that's not even an isolated incident, you're still doing it. your mindset of "fire truck speculation, i'll just analyze later" irks me because it directly contrasts the image of a newbie who's open to learning the game that you had early on. it doesn't feel consistent and i don't understand why you're doubling down so hard

[zwerdjib]

still writing, but can you elaborate on that? i do believe that his reactions to things feel oddly theatrical, but i'm still having a hard time getting a proper read on him

well, not to be rude, but you could totally just scroll up

but in general, its strawberries

actually hear me out.... dormio was talking up a storm for this setup right??? it would be really lame if we lynched the third party lovers in d1 before they even get to do anything overnight, so we may as well lynch someone else and let the third party self-resurrecting serial killer lovers do their thing

##Unvote
##Vote: Disquieted

like

too bad i already declared myself insane and literally don't care :)
##Unvote
##Vote: Fabloo
full steam ahead! choo choo

this

i have no idea how tom has displayed a rational chain of thought and i feel like everything he said on the last page (if you guys are using the same page system as i am) is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. this straight up does not seem like a town thing to do, let alone even a coherent thing to do

##Unvote
##Vote: Tom

please tell me if i am going insane

you might need to click on the quote for context to see why these are bad, i think (the last quote is bad because its a weird flip flop from tom to fabloo in like 5 posts)

[Disquieted]

I'm going to sleep. I suppose I should apologise for both walls, one of them really wasn't necessary and is going to spark a debate which I'm sure is going to be fun and not clog up the thread with non alignment indicative conversation. This is why I didn't want to do it in the first place.

Mafia's a game that involves negative behaviour and is generally widely considered a mistake. Don't talk to me, I am the clown.

[zwerdjib]

I'm going to sleep. I suppose I should apologise for both walls, one of them really wasn't necessary and is going to spark a debate which I'm sure is going to be fun and not clog up the thread with non alignment indicative conversation. This is why I didn't want to do it in the first place.

Mafia's a game that involves negative behaviour and is generally widely considered a mistake. Don't talk to me, I am the clown.

shut up youre doing fine

[zwerdjib]

though i cant agree with your tom read. not especially because you yourself admit that its based on the assumptions we have to make d1. but hmm, feels like hard committing to a debate like this will go nowhere. so tbh im willing to give tom a pass for today. definitely curious about him tomorrow bc it seems like his slot will be moderately difficult to sort out as long as he has the newbie pass

[Disquieted]

I’ll shorten it then - I refuse to believe the new, most involved player in this game, is scum, see you next year.

[zwerdjib]

I’ll shorten it then - I refuse to believe the new, most involved player in this game, is scum, see you next year.

no i figured that im just trying to find out how exactly i stand on tom

[Fabloo]

OK. My turn to part you with knowledge.

There is this very annoying dynamic that I've seen present in two games now. This precautionary idea of good play and bad play. The reality is that it doesn't exist. When I said Yearsulf's content sucked, I said it to get his attention. Too often to do things get personal or do people get offended. Going back a further step, a lot of my early behavior was cautious. Some of you might remember last game but I wanted to prevent another Conqueror situation from going on. Someone who skirted the line all the way up to D6 on the merits of being a good player. And then I see people being on Tom just because he's a newcomer therefore not likely to be a good player. This is frustrating. I have a feeling this idea plagues this website far too often and there are many mislynches that happened based on preconceived notion of who's playing good or bad.

It truly doesn't matter. Good play to me has no translation. Bad play is just a poor man's excuse. Both ends. Social games have caveats in them but it's not like there is any technical proficiency put into them. Can you speak english? Can you use a keyboard? You probably can play Mafia. The caveats I'm talking about come from the instinctual purpose behind words. Forming your thoughts through interaction with others. Dormio last game spoke through C++ and I still could understand him pretty well. 

[Fabloo]

So why did I not like BBM/Serela? I don't know. It just came to me. I personally believe. And you can argue with me about it. The biggest thing you can do is to let people know what you're thinking. This of course requires some restraint. You don't want to be too passive but not filling a whole page with your thoughts. I don't like posting often but I also feel slightly gutted when it's clear I'm not being understood.

This has a bigger point. I discussed caveats. I think most players are only separated by experience. You can only get "better" and more aware over time. You get into situations that you can recall and maybe even relate to in future games. This has happened with me many times. This is what seperates and makes people dangerous. It's clear to me that BBM has been around a good amount of time and knows how to function as a townie. This is dangerous if he's scum. Is he scum? That was something I asked myself. The answer I'm reaching right now is that it'd be impossible to condemn him at this point of the game. This is the same thing that happened with Conqueror as I replaced in. This is all perspective. A lot of people are. Conqueror and BBM likely aren't the same people. The only thing similar is their experience. This is likely why people give experience a pass. This isn't the easiest game to get into but it is also victim to confirmation bias. We want to be right and we want our opinions to be correct. You can break this down into psychology. It's actual human nature.

That's what makes it difficult though. Which experience comes with the ability to deceive. It's why I'm not willing to instantly see things as they are. People are too clever. This isn't a crash course but scum's only job is to avoid lynches and kill townies and look good while doing it. They don't have the same pressure of a townie who has to convince everyone else that their thoughts are valid. Or that they aren't secretly Mafia. Town often accuses town because of this allotted pressure. I'm saying this now but I think my spat with Polaris was largely conceived on this basis. It's not like scum can't have a range or even fake emotions. I just believe his stubbornness in that moment attests to this ideal I represented. Nobody wants to play bad. If someone is hard to read. If someone is not being understandable. They're bad not me. It's very selfish and kind of vain. Most townies are.